Me? Never.
The other night I was walking up one of the back streets. I heard shouting and sounds of distress.
Not my business. Not mine to interfere in a ‘domestic’ dispute.
I walked on.
And battled with my conscience. How would I feel if someone walked on? I walked back.
The man was walking away. That was a good start.
The woman was halfway up some steps leading to the next level of streets. We have a lot of steps in Gibraltar.
‘Do you need any help? Are you OK?’
‘Yes please. I’m not really OK.’
Could have been worse. She wasn’t bleeding or bruised.
A domestic spat? Whatever, she was in no fit condition (alcohol) to get home alone with shopping bags.
So Ms Roughseas Who Really Still Can’t Walk Properly and Struggles With Steps climbed up to help. Somehow I took her shopping bags, gave her an arm, and we clambered up the remaining steps together.
Then we lurched up the street to her home.
‘Why are you doing this? Why are you helping me? Why are you my Guardian Angel?’
Many of us have been there. For whatever reason. Too much to drink, and … well … the world is not easily negotiable.
I took her into her block, she couldn’t find her flat keys so I looked in her bag for them, opened up the flat, put her bags down, suggested she go to bed (she wanted to go out again!), introduced myself and left.
Partner was a bit worried when I returned home, I’d been out longer than normal. ‘I met this woman who needed help.’
‘Oh yeah, I know her. Really intelligent. Got a good job. Needs to chill out by drinking. Lives with an arsehole.’
Well there you go. I meet a random stranger and Partner knows all about her!
I’ve not seen her since. Would I do it again? Of course. Would I wait for the man to piss off? Advisable.
Mario Lanza. Guardian Angels fell a bit short for him:
Well done, roughseas!
“Lives with an arsehole” – egads, that line. So often the case, eh? Makes me wonder, are there THAT MANY arseholes out there? 😦
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Do you have a blog Carmen? Your gravatar doesn’t have a link on it. If you do and it is a private one, no worries. I just fancied taking a peek *smiles*.
– esme peeking from upon the Cloud
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Here’s my email, Esme
baylady10@gmail.com
🙂
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Carmen, do you want me to take that down once Esme has read it? You could get lots of fundy emails!!
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no worries, I’m pretty stoic! 🙂 If you can handle ’em, I can!
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Thank you, I’ve sent a message *smiles*.
– esme the nosy one upon the Cloud
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It’s easy to say hypothetically what to do. Faced with a dark night, a shouting match, and no one else around, it’s a different situation. Why did no one else intervene? Am I really the only one? That’s worrying.
Are there? Probably.
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@Carmen
Given what patriarchy does to people, I’m amazed we are still chugging along as ‘civilized’ societies.
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Yes, indeed, Arb – I’m involved in a discussion on another blog where it’s extremely obvious what patriarchy has done to two seemingly intelligent women. . .sigh. . it’s wearisome.
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@Carmen
Good times. I’m not sure what is more fun dealing with dudes that are living the privileged dream or women who have internalized all the barbed wire that is the P.
*sigh*
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Aren’t they both the same Arb? In a way?
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@Carmen
Yeah, probably.
The struggle to break through the programming, rolling back base assumptions and what not, have parallels.
Sometimes it feels like trying to straighten the wind-chimes after a storm. Everything is tangled and knotted in amongst itself – completely defending against your efforts – and waiting only for the next wind to become again a knotty mess.
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That’s a good analogy, Arb.
I find myself equally saddened and infuriated by their thinking. I wish I could keep the animosity out of my responses. .
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@RSitM
Whoops. :> There I go not looking at the header of the message.
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You use email?
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Hey Carmen, should The Arb and/or I visit? 🙂
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Oh, you’ve been there – violetwisp’s blog. . .the one entitled, “love is a game.” (something about the manosphere). . .ick.
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Oh. That.
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@RSitM
Oh wow. That one is all yours. All sorts of misshapen tomfoolery going on over there. The pseudo-neuroscience/neurosexism is strong with that thread.
Bonne Chance 🙂
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Nah. Leaving it to those with more time and patience than I have 🙂 Go Carmen!
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I think you mean, “Go EMMA” – she’s brilliant. I suspect she’s come up against Liz before, though.
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Yeah, it reads a bit like a pre-rehearsed speech between experienced combatants! Have you read IB and Raut though? She prizes wisdom empathy and morality and then proceeds to call him a complete moron! I wonder if she speaks Finnish as well as he does English? Moron that he is. I haven’t the stamina with arguing with idiots, or as IB says, complete morons … so I’m out of all those ‘discussions’.
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Good on you, The urge to stay out of it needs to be overcome, though it is risky too. It was a very kind thing to do *smiles*.
– esme nodding upon the Cloud
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When to intervene is critical. I don’t know what I would have done had he not walked. Made it easier. I’m not 20 or 30 and fit any more. Why the hell is a woman in late fifties helping a woman ten? years younger? But still, she was so appreciative. She wouldn’t know me in the street, but that’s not the point. I would have liked a me to have helped me in that situation. That’s what matters.
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And I think that’s the key, if more people put themselves in other folks shoes, then everyone would live in a better world.
So, you’re a guardian angel eh? . I’ll admit, I did not see that one coming. Hahahahaha
– esme pegging it fast behind the sofa on the Cloud
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People (strangers) do and have helped me. Why would I not help someone else? So, I walk up some steps, (more exercise, a goood thing), and see someone home. Prevent her falling over and smashing her skull. I’d really liked to have seen her to bed but I thought that was a bit invasive!
Guardian angel? Nah, like I said, alcohol.
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I did almost the same thing, years ago. The scene was a bit different, though. In a pub, hubby and I having a (very) rare night out without the four kids. Ruined by the asshat two tables over, who was nasty to his wife and being very obnoxious about it. I waited until she fled to the washroom, then followed her. She could barely speak through her tears, she was so grateful that I would offer her a ride home and an offer to help. I think that upset her more than her partner’s nastiness. I remember thinking, “She’s gorgeous – how did she end up with a jerk like that?” But I know that there are all sorts of factors, and in her case, three children complicated the issue. . . . sigh . . .
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Sadly people get used to abuse which sounds the case in your example, and probably mine too. Help when we can.
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Not my business. Not mine to interfere in a ‘domestic’ dispute.
In one his later HHGTG books, Douglas Adam’s describes a spaceship that has landed at Lords, during a test match, completely unseen. The principle behind this stunning stealthiness was, if i remember it correctly, an NMP (Not My Problem) Drive: a device that renders objects completely invisible to passersby.
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There is a physical fear to start with. I’ve covered enough domestic abuse cases in court. Often the disputers turn on the ‘helper’. Not good.
I think it’s a difficult call. Partner doesn’t. There was a dying horse at our local grifo in Spain and they were going to kick it. He offered to kick the shit out of them.
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Good man. The helpers do get hurt often, I’ve seen it myself, its a judgement call at that moment in time I guess.
– esme .u.t.C
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I think the Spaniards thought he was joking until one saw the look on his face. He was VERY serious.
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They were going to kick it? What does that mean, abuse it?
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Yes. Kick it. With their feet. For fun or something.
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SEP – Somebody Else’s Problem? –
http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Somebody_Else's_Problem_field
By the Gods I miss Douglas Adams.
– esme upon the Cloud
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Confession. Never read it.
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Blimey.
– esme surprised upon the Cloud
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Blimey. I’ve surprised you twice in one post!!
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Hahahaha. You have at that! Any more and I’ll need a lie down. *laughs*
– esme pulling her eyebrows back down again upon the Cloud
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Can we add Carmen into that as an interesting person? 🙂
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Well she’s here, so that makes her relatively interesting for a start. *nods smiling*
– esme of napping in the afternoon fame upon the Cloud
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Naps are good 🙂 💤
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Foolish woman.
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Maybe so. There are many books I’ve never read. I’m considering the RSV, if only to say, ‘now I’ve read it. So what?’
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SEP! That sounds a little better. It was a moment of Adams’ genius.
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Glad you are doing more than just hoping. Soon you will be running.
That was a great thing to do.
What I really struggle to understand is why people stay on in bad relationships. Is there usually no way out?
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I’m not up on it, but they can be difficult to leave. And/or maybe a bad one is less worse than none?
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Maybe. It is a difficult question
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It’s a complex one, Noel. Here in the states, at least a 3rd of all women who were killed were murdered by an intimate partner.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/09/men-killing-women-domesti_n_5927140.html
Approximately 75% of women who are killed by their partners are murdered during or after an attempt to leave the relationship.
http://www.domesticabuseshelter.org/InfoDomesticViolence.htm
In the state I used to live in a year ago, South Carolina, the number one cause of death for women was homicide by an intimate partner, and usually with a gun.
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Thanks Victoria. I recently read a book (fiction) about that very subject. The woman only motivated herself to stand up against the man because she thought he was going to kill her dog. But she could do nothing for herself and when the dog was rehomed she went back to square one, until he smashed a few ribs and she eventually staggered next door for help. Fiction yes. But no doubt plenty of women would empathise with that story.
Ironically her new partner turned out to be a hit man. But, at least he didn’t hit women …
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Kate, that was brave of you to help this lady, and quite admirable.
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Thank you. I’m not looking for plaudits as I’m sure you know. Rather, to weigh up when/if to intervene and assess the risk to self (obviously) and other participants. I’ll be honest, I did look behind to see if he had had a change of mind and was returning.
Last year, a family of four were murdered in Gib. This is a rare occurence. There had been shouting and noise from the flat. A couple of days later the couple and two children were found dead (he killed himself after murdering the others).
How on earth do we decide what’s a domestic argument, rather than violence? what’s life threatening? where it’s safe or acceptable to offer help? or where it’s a risk? Years ago Partner tried to help a woman and the couple both turned on him.
And when alcohol is involved, it can be more risky. I was lucky in this case. He didn’t return, and she was appreciative. But it’s never an easy decision.
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That was my immediate thought (higher risk) with regard to alcohol being involved. Also, you make great points about if, and/or one should get involved or not. I know that here in the US, women (or men) in domestic violence situations are not going to get the necessary protection from police, and having a restraining order is a joke.
When I was around 12, my mom (who had been divorced for about 2 years) was dating a man, a doctor, who was considered well respected in the community. Not long after dating him she discovered he drank a lot and didn’t like his behavior when he was intoxicated. So she broke up with him. Well, that didn’t go over so well. He broke into our house, and hid, waiting for my mom to come home. We didn’t know he had broken in because it was a back window of my brother’s bedroom.
So, we were all in the the den/kitchen area—me, my mom, brother and sister—when we saw him enter the room from the hallway. He had a shotgun and aimed it at my mom. When I went to call the police, he aimed the gun at me. The only reason we are all alive today is because my mom had a seizure and fell to the floor. He fled. But he stalked her for several years after that, and the police didn’t do squat to protect her.
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Jesus, that’s a scary story 😦
The gun risk is low here. That’s a good start. The alcohol one is high, no duty on spirits so it’s cheap to get drunk here. Similarly, proximity to Morocco makes drugs easily available. But it’s the inflammatory alcohol that’s the worry (and I drink too, so I’m not judging). It’s a fine balance to offer help, much as ideally one would want to.
We’ve called the police before to sounds of shrieking, banging against furniture etc. To be fair they came quickly only for the residents to say ‘just a family argument’. But who’s to know whether it’s that or the murder case I cited above? Nobody likes people interfering. Nobody likes to be left helpless either.
In the end, in the above case, it seemed relatively save, and I helped a woman home who was struggling to walk. Even if she could have found her keys (she looked twice in her bag and missed them), she certainly couldn’t have found the keyhole! I’d do the same again, but lessons 1) I’d wait for the man to leave (as I did), 2) if he didn’t, then, actually I don’t know what I’d do?
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@RSitM
(relating to your post to the vibes emanating from VW’s)
One of the first planks in the manosphere’s platform is the ‘ease’ of woman obtaining a divorce these days.
They rally against notions women have fought for/fight for to protect themselves in society. Their world view is topsy-turvy portraying themselves as the victims of family court and divorce court (utter bullcookery of course). MRA’s and their ilk are just symptoms of the great problem: Male Violence. It is the root of so much of what is wrong with our world today.
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I would agree but disagree. One of the reasons for divorce and men’s problems is the need for women to get married to get anywhere at all. To be valued. To have status. To be economically provided for. This is where patriarchy regally stuffs men and women. They both get sucked into relationships because they must do so. Women do it because they have to. Men do it because naughty Eve seduces them, then runs off with the kids, the money, the house, and the divorce settlement.
On the other hand, how many men really think about the impact that pregnancy and childbirth has on a woman?
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Agreed, Arb, and the dysfunction stems from a highly stratified culture. It is observed among other primates with highly stratified cultures. The MRA’s are blaming women, yet not addressing the root causes. Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, and you only need to watch the first minute:
Kinda ironic that the beginning of the video quotes Aristotle, who viewed women as inferior. Sapolsky observed a dramatic change of behavior towards female baboons when the troop’s hierarchy was loosened. The Beta males weren’t bullied as much from Alpha males, and the females became less fearful of the males, which meant they were more inclusive. You can read about it in Peace Among Primates, scroll down to Left behind.
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/peace_among_primates
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Was the reading link for me V? 😉
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Certainly, if you want to, Kate. I know I tend to be resource heavy in my comments, but the read is short if you just read the section Left behind. It’s quite eye-opening, and shows that humans aren’t that much different than baboons when it comes to social stratification.
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I meant rather than my vid aversion 😀
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Oh. 😀
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Well, I did read the article. Especially interested in macaques as we have them here. I’ve written about them as I find the human/macaque interaction interesting, ie the dominance and interaction between us.
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Thank you. 🙂
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@NN
Familiar with the study. 🙂 I like the findings, which leads me to believe that I need to find some different studies that come to similar conclusions – it fits too perfectly into the schema of my thoughts and positions about society (confirmation bias and all that…)
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“Men raised in patriarchal family structures in which traditional gender roles are encouraged are more likely to become violent adults, to rape women acquaintances, and to batter their intimate partners than men raised in more egalitarian homes.” (Straus et al., 1980; Gwartney-Gibbs et al., 1983; Fagot et al., 1988; Friedrich et al., 1988; Koss and Dinero, 1989; Riggs and O’Leary, 1989; Malamuth et al., 1991, 1995)
More studies.
http://www.nap.edu/read/5127/chapter/5
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LOL — wrong video.
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You hear too often about people helping others and end up badly hurt or even dead. Someone I once knew believed in guardian angels and said there are earth angels as well. You must be one of them Kate. I really don’t know if I would have done the same. If it was someone I know. Yes. But a stranger? Dunno.
If I was there I would have definitely helped you help the woman and most probably kicked the arsehole’s teeth in if he tried something. Then I would give the woman a piece of my mind because she drank too much and you as well because you could have hurt yourself.
Maybe by helping her she stopped drinking because she really believes you were her guardian angel. Hopefully she got rid of the arsehole.
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I’m no angel at all which is why I thought it funny she called me one.
Gib is pretty quiet at night, but as I said to V, domestic disputes + alcohol = risky scenario.
There wasn’t anyone else around as I recall. It wasn’t hugely late or anything, say 9 or 10 at the latest. If I tried to kick anyone I’d fall over 😀 Not much point saying anything to the woman. She knew she was pissed. Doubt she’ll have stopped drinking. Let’s hope she ditched the man though. Partner also knows who he is. ‘Nasty fat little toad.’ Bit of an insult to toads mind.
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Well, if I believed in angels, I would definitely call you one and I am not just saying that.
I am sure it is, but still and yes, it is a risky scenario that. I can’t handle drunk people and also can’t understand why they drink. Such a waste, but their problem. I get upset when they make it mine.
Yes, you would and that is why I would have rather helped you than the woman. Not much point in talking to any of them who likes to drink. I should know. My father and stepfather were both alcoholics.
Let’s hope for that at least then and yes, a total insult to toads. They’re not arseholes. 😀
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Best not to believe in angels 😀 that will get me off the hook!
Drinking is a nice chill. We do it at home. Doing it out is not so clever.
What’s an alcoholic? The classic: someone who drinks more than you. Or. What’s a functioning alcoholic?
There’s been drink in my family too 😦 It’s not just the alcohol though, it’s the whole so-called ‘social’ atmosphere. I hate it with a passion. That’s why, when we drink, it’s at home. It escalates too fast when people are out. It’s weird.
Toads and frogs are lovely 🙂
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LOL! Good answer!
I agree. Same here and drunk people is not a lovely sight, especially in public.
Yeah, all the names they will come up to label people who have problems and make it the problem of others. My father and step-father was abusive alcoholics. My father used to hit us and my mother. My step-father was the verbal abusive kind and in his drunken stupors he would take his guitar, put on some Elvis music and force us to listen to him trying to play the guitar and sing off-key.
Yeah, I know that kind of ‘social’ atmosphere where alcohol is involved. It stinks. Some people get aggressive, others become very ‘intelligent’, etc. I think it’s because most people feel so bad about themselves and I’ve noticed that when they drink it gives them a confidence boost. Some become very brave as well. Others become very loving. They can’t stand you when they’re sober but when they’re drunk, they love you to bits. My MiL was like that. Ugh!
Toads and frogs are gorgeous! Love watching ours at night hopping around on the porch and grass. Sometimes they take a short-cut through the house and squeal when I pick them up. So adorable. 😀
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Physical violence is dire, but poor guitar-playing and singing off-key could come a close second. Verbal abuse is as bad too, the scars are longer lasting. I’m not keen on drinking socially, I don’t think alcohol and company are a good combination, unless you know people extremely well and are totally at ease with them.
Years since I’ve seen any. We did have some in our UK pond though. Cuties.
Anyway, went out last night and took a photo (and some others) of the steps in question.
Forty Steps.
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I totally agree. Luckily I married a man who can play guitar and sing and as much as I love Elvis’ music, it does bring up bitter memories. Yes, it is and they are for sure.
We’re not either. At a stage we karaoke’d at O’Hagans and it was fun while it lasted. Hubby would have a beer and me the same or a sherry. Depended on the weather. I must say that I can’t remember meeting anyone that was drunk and they were all very nice folks and we all had fun without getting drunk. Those were good times indeed. 😀
A pity. I must send you some of ours that’s hopping around in the garden. 😆
After seeing those steps, I have more than a ‘piece of my mind’ that I want to give you. 😛
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Well done Clouds. Send some of your identical twins across the pond too, please! 🙂
Does Partner have any idea now if they still live together?
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They probably do.
And this GA won’t be swimming across in a hurry.
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