From Violet’s blog about MRAs.
Insanity wrote:
Actually Carmen, many of those men are genuinely having lots of sex, which than begs the question, why are there so many stupid women in the world?
It also answers another of your questions, why do I believe in God? Because the evidence of His existence is all around me, but also because I have learned that we all have a God sized hole within us, that can only be satisfied by His presence. In the absence of God people will instead pour everything else they can into the abyss of their souls, like those ‘spherians do with women.
And:
Re: Holes
I can only speak for myself when I say no orifice on my body is anywhere near deity-sized, but I will acknowledge IB and say, any woman with a ”God-sized hole” is most definitely going going to get screwed by Christianity.
This is not good.
Let me explain why.
Looking at IB’s comment, she referred to ‘we all’.
Did she make that gender specific? Male or female? No.
Now, let’s look at Ark’s response.
He dismisses the fact that he can get screwed (by christianity or anything/one else) but says a woman with a god-sized hole will (get screwed).
- why does the man not have a large (god-sized) hole and the woman does?
- why should a woman be more susceptible to christianity than a man?
- because, a man could just as well be screwed by christianity up his arse (who is to say the size of one’s deity-sized hole) as a woman could up her ‘god-sized hole’. So why don’t we have that analogy?
- why, why, why, is a religious/spiritual reference denigrated by referring to screwing women? Because, that’s how we demean life. Screwing women takes us down to the lowest common denominator.
- seriously, please do not use screwing women as a way to deride christianity. Women have enough problems as it is.
- men are just as likely to succumb to Xtianity: W, J, D, CS et al
- total fail, using a woman’s vagina for ‘humour’, suggesting women are more malleable than men, and actually choosing to misinterpret what IB originally said. In a not good way.
So to all of you who found it funny, you have free rein. Comment away.
And if you think you know about feminism, dream on. Your words betray you.
roughseasinthemed
Clouds moving in 
What a waste that we lived 10 minutes away from each other but weren’t friends 16 years ago.
Of course this touches on the fundamental theory: A woman is incomplete- (any) man has the magical christmas ornament that completes her and makes her whole (worthwhile?)
Tiresome theory.
Suggestion: let’s turn it around and put real words to use and see how that sounds?
Why don’t women have less rights? Should they really be protected from rape? How silly!
Climate change? Garbage. Let’s pollute as much as we can. Surely nothing bad can come of that.
Guns? Let’s go for it!
And abortion… well, visit https://www.womenonweb.org/ and get whatever information one may need.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Indeed. Or at least when we both started WP blogging (I shouldn’t be so harsh on Eric Le Clown, he did at least unintentionally introduce us!) I think something on those lines every time we drive up the N340. And of course when we did finally start talking about meeting, I broke my ankle and you put Vl’A on the market. We were a classic example of failed carpe diem. 😀
My main gripe here is about so-called humour. Because everything is more important than women. Want to have a go at Christianity? Sure. Let’s just talk about women’s vaginas and sex to make our point. Because everyone will find it funny. Except for me, of course.
On climate change, I don’t have an issue with the world heating up or down as it has done many times before. I do have a big issue with pollution, global companies getting away with blue murder, or to keep on topic – environmental rape, and governments using it as a farcical excuse to impose more taxes on the average person in the street. The world is a disaster zone, and not just environmentally.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well Kate, I’m sorry that you or anyone else was offended by me finding Ark’s comment funny. It struck me as funny because Christianity oozes with sexual connotations. Just read the church signs in America — it will boggle your mind. Also, when you look at the studies, women tend to be more religious than men.
“As Marta Trzebiatowska and Steve Bruce note in their book Why Are Women More Religious Than Men? (Oxford, 2012), “since 1945 the Gallup polling organization has consistently found that, on every index used, American women are more religious than men, and not by small margins.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201409/why-are-women-more-religious-men
With few exceptions, the studies also found that this was an international phenomena.The article goes on to say that the overall pattern of men being more atheist or agnostic than women the world over is clear and strong, leading the researchers to conclude that “atheists are predominantly males.”
I saw Ark’s comment as a play on words, and although it may have come across as insensitive, he was rather insightful (whether he was aware of it or not), about women tending to be more likely to be “screwed” by Christianity.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I doubt anyone else was offended, and I accepted I would be treading on toes. And, it’s not so much the blanket term of offence, but rather disappointment, that yet again a woman’s vagina is used to make a ‘smart’ or ‘funny’ comment to deride something else, in this case Christianity. I’ve written about so-called humour and sexism before and by going with the flow all we do is reinforce the fact that it’s OK to joke about women being ‘screwed’, and in effect, being raped I guess. But the issue is not Christianity, it is our societal model; religion, whether Xtianity or Islam or Judaism, are merely the vehicles that serve to perpetuate women’s oppression.
It’s hard to comment on the content of the book as the author of the article didn’t reference original data, rather pulling out selective statistics, and concluded with personal opinions as to why women might be (or appear to be) more religious, none of which were surprising. It doesn’t take much to come up with lack of power, prestige, money, need for involvement, self-worth/belonging (Maslow’s triangle comes to mind), even time on hands, as potential reasons why women may favour religion. And of course, the big three mimic patriarchal society with the submissive role of women in religion, so there is an inbuilt indoctrination factor to start with – as you know far better than me. To go off at a tangent slightly, it’s somewhat like D/s male/female relationships. Do women actually genuinely want to be submissive or are we bombarded with this male domination thing from day one so that we can’t tell what we might think from what we are conditioned to think?
And just as everyone, ie women and men suffer through our sexist society, so everyone suffers through religion. Even if it’s as basic as the waste of time and money. Want to feel good? Go volunteer at a charity. Two of my neighbours give up a Saturday morning to go and clean out and help at a local cat refuge. One has homed a couple of kittens too. That’s far more use than bible study and wasting Sunday morning (or all day Saturday in the case of Jews).
I was aware it was a play on words. I would prefer it not to be at women’s expense.
LikeLike
I think the ‘God-sized hole’ was taken out of context and it’s actually ‘God shaped hole’ where they believe that their god created a ‘hole’ that cannot be filled by any other than him and it was created for them to look for him. The believe is when you feel unsatisfied, unfulfilled, thirsty and still searching for real meaning in life, then you haven’t found that ‘hole’ and that ‘God’ and only ‘He’ can fill that ‘hole’.
Some even went so far as to misquote Blaise Pascal saying: “There is a God shaped vacuum in the heart of every person which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator.”
The correct quote: “What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace?
This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself”. (page 75 of Blaise Pascal’s Pensees (New York; Penguin Books, 1966)
See how words can be taken out of context and how people only see or read what they want to see or read and how they change words to suit their own purposes?
Nothing to do with sex or women. I agree with Victoria. Christianity does ooze with sexual connotations. I also found Ark’s comment funny because knowing him, he meant it to be funny and just like Victoria I also saw it as a play on words and she is also right on him being insightful. Women are more likely to be screwed by Christianity and take it from someone who was there and who knows.
Women are more susceptible to christianity than a man. That is a fact. Men think logically. Women think through emotions. At least, most of us do.
I also get your point and rightly said. When it comes to feminism, all of the points you mentioned can be taken in that light. Once again it comes down to attitudes and if it’s going to ever change.
What about dumb blonde jokes? Clearly they started making those jokes up just so everyone can could understand and yes, some think they are degrading and others think it’s funny. I don’t mind blonde jokes and some are really funny. I even sometimes prefer to myself having ‘blonde moments’ or giving it as a warning when I do or say something that I think was stupid.
So yes, when it comes down to it all, words that people use can be seen as demeaning and it can cause problems, but in the end it all depends on how we react to it and if it really does matter.
Point no. 7: You won’t know the word, but most South Africans do. There is an afrikaans word for a woman’s private used as a swear word and lots of people love using it. (In Holland this word is what you call a cat.) I went so far one day as to ask them why not use the men’s private as a swear word and someone told me it doesn’t have the same effect. After thinking about it, I realised it really doesn’t. Strange but true, and it’s a word that’s never going to go away, doesn’t matter what anyone say or do.
I won’t go as far to call myself a feminist either. Some women in this world are degraded and treated like they are nothing. Some had the courage to stand up for that and fight for it. That’s good. We all need to fight for what we want in life, to make it better for ourselves and standing up for what you believe in might bring a change in the minds of some.
‘Oh dear’ as the title of your post says it all. When I started reading all I could also say was ‘Oh dear’. 😀
LikeLike
Pascal should have stuck to maths and mechanics. I note he had brain damage on his death.
As you agree with V, then I won’t repeat what I said in my reply, but please read that in conjunction with this reply as well.
Women are, not just more likely, but are discriminated against and put down by society (by which I mean each other, men and women, and the way our societies work and are constructed). Religion is just one aspect of that. A big one sadly, but not the only one. Did you read V’s link? Because, again, as commented above, there are a number of reasons why women may ‘choose’ religion. And they are societal.
No. There is no reason for men and women to think differently. This is getting into the gender construct area of women are nurturing, caring, blah blah etc. I was reading an online book from my old school yesterday of careers of women (and boys from the boys school) under 40. The amount of women who had good careers in traditional male fields – aeronautics, accountancy, engineering, civil eng, architecture, for example, was amazing. Apparently one was featured on UK TV and described by Alan Sugar as a Rottweiler for her determination in achieving goals in the corporate world. And this is the issue. Women are not supposed to do that. It’s unusual. (Which reminds me, I need to get on with some corporate Rottweilering of my own!) We are not brought up to be assertive. When we are, it’s termed aggressive, or … Rottweilerish. Yeah, I’ve been called one too. But it’s not that women can’t do it. Women can. Women can and do think logically. Men also think emotionally.
Blonde jokes? Hate them. I think they are totally degrading. And not just because I used to be blonde!
Swearing? There is a big difference between the use of coño in Spanish and its English equivalent. And then there is chichi. But I’ll be honest, I avoid them all. I think out of context usage is inappropriate.
Lots of people say they are feminists because they believe in equal pay and ‘equal rights’ (for example). To me, feminism is much deeper than that. Back to our discussion about attitudes again. Sometimes, there are tiny marks of progress.
LikeLike
Since it’s been some years since I had sex I think I can refute the comment about there being so many stupid women in the World, or if one chooses to get picky, at least in Wales.
As for the god shaped hole, my health has led to any number of x-rays covering large parts of my body and I can say for sure there are no deity sized niches for anyone to occupy unless maybe hey happen to be big toe shaped. Some of us are quite happy with the disbelief filled holes that have still allowed us to function quite well in the world and still find tolerance, acceptance of other’s beliefs,love and a belief in world peace possibilities in our lives.
xxx Huge Hugs xxx
LikeLike
I suppose the classic comment to sex and Wales is, ‘ah but you’ve got all those sheep.’ Or, it’s the sort of thing my partner would say, not me.
There is only a gap in one’s life if we consider something to be missing.
LikeLike
I suspect he made reference to women simply because Insanity is a woman. Although if someone like CS had written it, he would likely have continued in the gender neutral theme.
It’s difficult to get rid of a term like ‘screwing someone’. I don’t think Ark’s comment was directly sexist, but I do think that kind of joke helps perpetuate unhelpful attitudes to women and sex generally.
And I don’t think it’s funny. I think many people do genuinely have a huge hole in their lives – lacking love, acceptance and understanding. A good relationship with a human (or a dog) or belief in the Christian god could all help with the emptiness in a similar fashion. I don’t like Insanity’s perfectly logical comment being used to make cheap jokes.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Like a lot of your readers, I am no admirer of Insanity. She brings on head-banging-against-the-wall syndrome. However, I did think it was a crass interpolation of what she wrote.
And, while you might not think it was ‘directly sexist’ by which I’m guessing you mean not intentionally so, surely the fact that you’ve suggested a reference to CS would have been gender neutral and that the ‘joke’ perpetuates attitudes means the comment was in fact sexist.
I think we agree to some extent. I certainly don’t agree that everyone has a God hole in their lives, and not everyone has a hole at all. Some people are self-sufficient. Perhaps through necessity. Although I think Sonel’s comment picks up the same theme about a gap in one’s existence. But while a person or an animal is tangible and physical, a relationship with an invisible deity is totally mental (so to speak). So, although I wouldn’t describe IB’s comment as ‘perfectly logical’ I thought the comment was a step too far and an unnecessary metaphor.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Did I say ‘perfectly logical’? I think I’m prone to over-stating my case. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think so 🙂
LikeLike
I’m just seeing this link today, Kate. (I didn’t know you had two blogs!) Since my name is mentioned in the body of the blog post, I’d like to respond. Understand that this is my ‘take’ on the situation. 🙂
I ‘liked’ Ark’s comment because it was – and IS – funny. In fact, I thought it was rather brilliant of him and I admire his quick wit and clever use of language. I DO think, however, that if the same comment had been directed at people I consider to be my friends, I’d probably take it as sexist. But here’s the thing. You went on to suggest that Ark is sexist (I don’t see him in that light; a sexist comment once in a great while does not make someone a sexist, in my books) and also to imply that the others who ‘liked’ his comment were also sexist. Not so, and I think you should know that about us by now. In fact, just the other day – on another blog – I replied to two men I feel ARE sexists; their attitudes certainly reveal that, judging from their comments on that blog.
Here’s something else – if anyone on that thread of violetwisp’s has a sexist attitude, it’s IB. What’s her attitude about women? That they should all stay home and raise children and be deferential to their husbands. Don’t forget that violetwisp’s audience is comprised of many women who have discovered that THAT attitude did not/does not bode well for many women. Naturally, being aware of her attitude causes me to be insensitive to her feelings at times – this I recognize.
Also, the irony of this whole thing is that violetwisp’s post was about the nasty, brutal world of – and I don’t think I am hyperbolizing here – men who HATE women and create an audience who feed on each other’s misogyny. Men who are insecure, powerless individuals who blame women for their own shortcomings instead of trying to change their attitudes.
Ark, even if he did make a sexist remark, was not the villain of the piece.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Five. Well six technically, although the one dogblog will fade away and the other may become active.
I like that we are all good enough friends to be able to disagree. I think that’s an important thing to say.
As for Ark, we’ve had loads of discussions about his alleged sexism. He’s no better or no worse than many others. And, to be fair, he did say recently that he’d changed some text after a rather acid roughseas criticism on one of his books. And, for clarity, I don’t find Ark sexist … just his comments. Just like, well loads of others I could mention.
But let me get this right, this was a funny brilliant comment, but if it had been directed at your friends it would be sexist? Double standards or what? Come on Carmen. IB might be full of shit, but take her out of the equation. Either it’s sexist to make a comment about screwing a woman’s hole or it isn’t.
We all have different views about feminism/sexism, and I accept mine are not mainstream. I don’t fnd it funny to make fun of vaginas.
As for IB and her posts/comments. Totally agree. I do not understand her pov at all, and think she causes a great disservice to women. I rarely visit her blog, usually only on reference, and invariably need my sick bucket. I am not for a minute defending her.
MRAs and women? It’s all wrapped up together. That is the real problem. No, Ark, wasm’t a villain. Just an un-innocent bystander. Just like JZ and his sandwich jokes. Just like every man who drags something down to women’s sexual status, or servitude.
LikeLike
I must admit I did think of the double standard thing after I wrote that. . . I guess I react to humour first of all. Ribald humour’s even better! But that’s just me. Plus the fact that, ‘sticking it to IB’ (there, I’ve done it again . . ) gives me a ‘hat’s off to you!’, to be perfectly honest.
And yes, I agree – we all have different views of sexism. Mine was cultivated at home. I’ve often said that I have an ‘asshole detector’ embedded in my forehead. For the first 17 years of my life, I had to listen to the terms ‘slut’ and ‘whore’ being levelled against any women who pissed my father off. . .of course, any woman who dared to challenge him was labelled a bitch (that one’s still in fashion, as it’s perfectly fine for men to be assertive – indeed, it’s expected that they be so – but women who do that. . .well, you’re probably well-schooled in that particular adjective, as am I) so you can probably tell that I spent a great deal of my teenage life seething. I won’t go on, but just so you realize that I am well aware of the damage done by sexism; I’m just perhaps not as concerned about jokes and phrases tossed out for shock value from men whom I consider to be nice guys. Believe me, you’ll be able to tell when my detector ‘pings’. . . 🙂
I’m supposed to be painting upstairs. .. better get to it!
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s not humour when it’s sexism directed at women. That’s a big part of the problem. ‘Jokes’ regarding women and sex are OK and we MUST find them funny.
No. We mustn’t. Because those ‘jokes’ and our acceptance of them are just as damaging as every other insult.
LikeLike
@RSitM
But, but… Not all Men are like that… (
)
The MRA community exemplifies the very first rule of misogyny: Women are held responsible for the actions of men.
The hive of scum and villainy that is any MRA hangout reeks with men blaming women for their problems. Not about improving themselves, not about becoming less ignorant, but all about why these bitches are not jumping on their dick.
There is no defense for them. Entitled man-baby whinge is boring, and really, should have no place on the internet or in society.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Thank you, Arb. I agree 100%, which is why talk of feeling sorry for them and trying to understand their misery just doesn’t work for me.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Of course there’s a defense for them. They’re lonely humans and they’ve found a supportive community that makes them feel better about themselves and brings real change in their lives. Saying something should ‘have no place in society’ when it clearly already does isn’t very constructive. Meeting hatred with hatred. They exist because people don’t understand their pain and isolation from mainstream relationshipped society. The whole discussion around them has reminded me that I was veering off into the mirror image of them at some lonely point in my life – should I blame the Matriarchy?
LikeLike
Aaaagh! You should be a social worker. Don’t slag off Ark in one breath and sympathise with arseholes in the next!
LikeLike
I’m slagging off Ark in a friendly fashion, and I expect there are reasons for his shortcomings too. 🙂
LikeLike
Slagging people off is rarely friendly. I can only think of one internet friend who I would feel I could do that with and still remain friends. I think Ark has taken this extremely well. Just as Professor Taboo did on Ruth’s. Both are sexist and don’t realise, but they also take the flack extremely well. Ark does deserve points for that. And for improving. Well, sort of 😀
LikeLike
@VW
Tolerating people who harass and threaten women isn’t high on my list of things to do in 2016.
They exist because there are not enough women willing to go full Stepford for them anymore.
Their pain and isolation is a direct correlate to their misogynistic, anti-social stance toward women in society. Fix the misogyny, more people might find them approachable.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yeah yeah, I need to do a post on Teh Menz Rights? In my own time, thank you. Unless you want to go first?
LikeLiked by 1 person
” You went on to suggest that Ark is sexist (I don’t see him in that light”
Don’t get me wrong, I love Ark to bits, best blogging buddy in some respects even though most of our interactions are a bit terse these days. But he is so completely sexist! He does his best to cover his tracks and bite his tongue. But one of my first discussions with him was expressing distaste at the naked women he had plastered over his blog and being met with a typically repulsive response asking me to ‘get my kit off’. I think he’s probably come a long way since he met Roughseas, but he’s got a long way to go.
LikeLike
Actually I’ll stand up for him here. He is no more or no less sexist than many others. Does he make sandwich ‘jokes’? No. As he has said he likes people talking about him, I’ll say that that he is willing to learn and isn’t arrogantly up himself. Sure, he has a way to go. So has everyone else.
LikeLike
Yes, you’re a good influence. But I’ll never shake off my first impression.
LikeLike
I’m sure I’m not a good influence on anyone. Certainly hope not. Opinion changer? I could aspire to that.
I go with first impressions too. I also go with how people can change. I also prefer honesty.
LikeLike
I will not add my two cents – it’s more fun having people talk about me as if I am not here; even though some regard me as not all there.
LikeLiked by 3 people
That was wittier than your other comment!
LikeLike
Pingback: Orchiectomy II | Clare Flourish
Pingback: The fulfilled life | Clare Flourish