God Bless America

Pontificating from my sofa about Syria is not my thing. I know stuff all about it, except I would not want to be fleeing a war-torn country with nothing. Reviewing Port of No Return was an eyeopener in that instance.

But, seriously, some of the comments about Syrian refugees are classic. Apologies to the original commenters, I’ve forgotten who or where they were.

Here is the first:

The Obama approach is the right one – to support and encourage Europe and the Persian Gulf states to take care of their own backyard.

Ah. I should have said, of course, both commenters are American.

OK, let’s look at backyards. I mean America really, really, really looks after its own backyard and keeps out of everyone else’s doesn’t it?

For the record:

List of countries the USA has bombed since the end of World War II

China 1945-46

Korea 1950-53

China 1950-53

Guatemala 1954

Indonesia 1958

Cuba 1959-60

Guatemala 1960

Belgian Congo 1964

Guatemala 1964

Dominican Republic 1965-66

Peru 1965

Laos 1964-73

Vietnam 1961-73

Cambodia 1969-70

Guatemala 1967-69

Lebanon 1982-84

Grenada 1983-84

Libya 1986

El Salvador 1981-92

Nicaragua 1981-90

Iran 1987-88

Libya 1989

Panama 1989-90

Iraq 1991

Kuwait 1991

Somalia 1992-94

Bosnia 1995

Iran 1998

Sudan 1998

Afghanistan 1998

Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999

Afghanistan 2001

Libya 2011

Source: Global Research/Huffington Post

A more up-to-date list here includes Syria.

And there is no involvement in the Middle East by America is there? Much.

Here is a link (written in 2001) that looks at US military interventions after 1870. Well worth a read.

A couple of extracts:

The following year, the U.S. deployed forces in the Persian Gulf after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which turned Washington against its former Iraqi ally Saddam Hussein. U.S. supported the Kuwaiti monarchy and the Muslim fundamentalist monarchy in neighboring Saudi Arabia against the secular nationalist Iraq regime. In January 1991, the U.S..and its allies unleashed a massive bombing assault against Iraqi government and military targets, in an intensity beyond the raids of World War II and Vietnam. Up to 200,000 Iraqis were killed in the war and its imemdiate aftermath of rebellion and disease, including many civilians who died in their villages, neighborhoods, and bomb shelters. The U.S. continued economic sanctions that denied health and energy to Iraqi civilians, who died by the hundreds of thousands, according to United Nations agencies. The U.S. also instituted “no-fly zones” and virtually continuous bombing raids, yet Saddam was politically bolstered as he was militarily weakened.

Here we have America intervening in the Persian Gulf States. Exactly the words of the commenter. Europe and the Gulf States should be looking after the aftermath. When America has gone home?

Intervene, Americans, and take the consequences. But don’t wring your hands in total innocence that you haven’t been there, invaded that, and killed civilians. And tell everyone else to look after ‘our’ backyard.

There is a good summary under a heading of ‘Common Themes’.

Here is the final par:

One of the most dangerous ideas of the 20th century was that “people like us” could not commit atrocities against civilians.

  • German and Japanese citizens believed it, but their militaries slaughtered millions of people.
  • British and French citizens believed it, but their militaries fought brutal colonial wars in Africa and Asia.
  • Russian citizens believed it, but their armies murdered civilians in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and elsewhere.
  • Israeli citizens believed it, but their army mowed down Palestinians and Lebanese.
  • Arabs believed it, but suicide bombers and hijackers targeted U.S. and Israeli civilians.
  • U.S. citizens believed it, but their military killed hundreds of thousands in Vietnam, Iraq, and elsewhere.

Every country, every ethnicity, every religion, contains within it the capability for extreme violence. Every group contains a faction that is intolerant of other groups, and actively seeks to exclude or even kill them. War fever tends to encourage the intolerant faction, but the faction only succeeds in its goals if the rest of the group acquiesces or remains silent. The attacks of September 11 were not only a test for U.S. citizens attitudes’ toward minority ethnic/racial groups in their own country, but a test for our relationship with the rest of the world. We must begin not by lashing out at civilians in Muslim countries, but by taking responsibility for our own history and our own actions, and how they have fed the cycle of violence.

Other reading about American intervention:

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya050713.htm

http://www.sott.net/article/273517-Study-US-regime-has-killed-20-30-million-people-since-World-War-Two

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/america-war-93-time-222-239-years-since-1776.html

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/casualties_of_war.htm

Here is another American comment:

Yes, when it comes to policing migration I prefer a strong government. Things like controlling the flow of migrants is why we have national governments in the first place. A government can allow people to risk their own lives, but it can’t risk their lives for them.
Thanks for sharing your litany of faith about how you think the world works, essentially that Muslims have no personal responsibility for anything and everything is the fault of evil anglophones and Jews. Touching in its simplicity, really, but I just don’t give a fuck right now.
Bush should not have invaded Iraq? I happen to agree. But I just don’t give a fuck anymore, understand? Keep terrorists out of my country.
Iraq having been invaded, Obama ought not have given Iraqi hegemony to Iran? I agree. But I don’t give a fuck. Keep terrorists out of my country.
Saudi Arabia and Israel don’t want refugees? Maybe they have good reasons. I don’t want them either unless you can prove to me they are not dangerous.
A Sweede shot up a school so that means we shouldn’t care if an Arab we import shoots up a Synagogue or gay bar? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Finland has a wonderful Muslim population? Who the fuck cares? Tell that to the dead people in Paris.
When the refugee crisis started the leaders of the EU laughed off people’s fears about ISIS infiltration. Then Paris gets shot up. The EU leaders are calculating how many of their own citizens can be murdered as collateral damage for the sake of cheap labor. And here you are convincing yourself that they are making the right choice.

One word comes to mind here immediately. Selfish. In the extreme. Arrogant, selfish, racist, and fascist.

Keep terrorists out of my country? Keep America out of the rest of the world might be more appropriate.

But, let’s look at another aspect. Why are European countries that are crammed to the gills in terms of population density, accepting refugees when those with big wide open spaces are equivocating?

Map of US states taking/hesitating/refusing Syrian refugees.

Just to put this in context, Gibraltar is the fifth most populated state/territory in the world, with 11,000 people per square kilometre. I’m not sure we’re in a position to accept a few thousand refugees. But I think we have a better argument than America does for refusal.

Netherlands, 1000 per sq km

Belgium, 953

UK, 679

Germany 591

France, 306

Spain, 238

USA (at position 182 out of 244), 85

That is 85 people per square kilometre. For those of you who like miles, 32.8 per square mile.

Canada, 9.3

and, Australia, 8.07

I had to add the decimal points for the last two as the figures looked so small. In square miles, they both hover around three.

Maybe America might want to take Australia’s previous line? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28189608

Wiki gives some context as to who takes who and ‘pledges’. It’s a good enough broad-brush perspective.

Disclaimer: I have American blogging friends. This post is not directed at them. Rather, at the wagons-in-a-circle mentality. America, if you want to genuinely espouse the role of world leader, it takes more than bombing the shit out of countries far away from you (possibly with oil), and then running home saying the fallout is nothing to do with you.

But here’s Ark with a similar but different take …

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About roughseasinthemed

I write about my life as an English person living in Spain and Gibraltar, on Roughseas, subjects range from politics and current developments in Gib to book reviews, cooking and getting on with life. My views and thoughts on a variety of topics - depending on my mood of the day - can be found over on Clouds. A few pix are over on Everypic - although it is not a photoblog. And of course my dog had his own blog, but most of you knew that anyway. Pippadogblog etc
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115 Responses to God Bless America

  1. @RSiTM

    The post need to be written a thousand more times, as this is the post I essentially write every time when dealing with recent history/politics/geo-politics/world happenings.

    Nothing changes until it is understood that the rules we expect other countries to follow also must apply with the exact same intensity to us.

    Best example off the top of my head(ish) – U.S Justice Robert Jackson speaking of the Nuremberg Trial:

    “If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them. And we are not prepared to lay down the rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us. We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well.”

    To the best of my knowledge, most of the West seems to be quite slaphappy in condemning others for their crimes while then politely taking a pass when it comes to acknowledging their own criminality.

    Justice by who wields the largest stick, is no justice at all. (Hmm… seems like a another relevant analysis on a different topic) It’s just that the people who are getting the business end of the stick know the equation all to well, while those holding it are oblivious (cultured or otherwise) to the injustice they are responsible for.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Well, I try not to write it too often, or at least change the plot slightly 🙂

      But still, do the facts not speak for themselves? The numbers of countries invaded? People killed? Civilians treated with disdain as though they IE we, are inanimate objects. Just disposable. Like a sanitary towel. Just throw it away.

      This is not world leadership behaviour. Trouble is, we have all been there and done it before. America is just doing the same old colonial thing in a different form. It doesn’t take much to reduce it to basics. Invade, kill the troublesome natives, install puppet government, strip assets and withdraw. Basic rape really.

      I specifically included the references to other countries because I thought it was a useful comparison. None of us are innocent. And certainly my own country’s performance has been crap for years as we tag along on America’s coat tails despicably. In the UK’s feel defence we no longer purport to be a world leader. We can’t sort our own country, but can America? Gone are the days of thoughtful intelligent thinkers at state level.

      Years of civilisation and we still rape and pillage. Depressive in the extreme.

      Liked by 1 person

    • PS I’ve had time to read the Chomsky article you linked to. It was good.

      Like

  2. I’m behind – but it looks like you’re poking ant beds again. (will have to catch up) As always analytical and logical.
    The price of the US form of government means with free speech, everyone has the right to talk and be offended ( And now unified national opinion rarely exists.) Not everyone supported or was happy about US involvement and those little “police actions” of the past and now. More and more the government/elected officials seem to disregard what the people want (lobbyist for companies, manufacturing, multinational companies have more money and push). All many of us can do is stay in contact with elected officials to express our thoughts – and hope the fools don’t cause too much damage before they can be voted out. Attitudes like in your comments are disturbing.
    I can only blame poor education system, lack of any knowledge of history, and sadly a lack of world travel by young/many people here. Travel opens the eyes to so much.
    That and the fact that life here is easy by comparison. Lots of free stuff if you are clever and work the (loose and broken) systems in place to help people. Demand, temper tantrum and you will get. That lesson well learned. Those who have been overly sheltered – and had parents/activists/lawyers rush in to solve problems/make excuses for them – become spoiled, weak, unrealistic, and afraid. And easily lead. Childhood lasts far too long here compared to the rest of the world.
    The mass human migration is not just occurring with Syria. When considering refugees, it is only fair to count the masses flowing into the US from Central and South America, too. We are absorbing huge numbers ( and have done so without much complaint here since the 90’s)
    Texas has had a very close relationship with Mexico. Until 911 we had kids born in the US living across the border in MX who got up every morning, walked across the border bridge and got on the school bus to go to school. “Security” has caused a lot of problems in ordinary lives.
    I don’t know any easy answers. It’s a world wide migration issue, and all of it needs to be considered – not just a piece here and a piece there. Although peace would be a practical solution. And helping neighbors in need. But that’s just me. (now I do need to catch up on reading at which point I’ll probably find I’m totally off topic…but dog with crummy tummy trumps blogs right now…and oc course the weather is miserable)

    Liked by 1 person

    • @PMoH

      “The price of the US form of government means with free speech, everyone has the right to talk and be offended”

      Is this an accurate statement. The amount of free speech and right to be offended in the US seems to be directly correlated to where one sits in the race/class hierarchy.

      ” Lots of free stuff if you are clever and work the (loose and broken) systems in place to help people.”

      and

      “Demand, temper tantrum and you will get. That lesson well learned. Those who have been overly sheltered – and had parents/activists/lawyers rush in to solve problems/make excuses for them – become spoiled, weak, unrealistic, and afraid. And easily lead.”

      The poor person’s nirvana is the US? And only a strong sense of personal responsibility will fix? One might assume that their is some american-style libertarian thought processes behind a comment such as this.

      Most of the time libertarian solutions are provided by people high enough in the social structure they can effectively overlook the class barriers in place that keep people ignorant, indigent and ineffective.

      Like

      • It’s not Hollywood here. But we do try for a more perfect union.Mistakes made, and attempts to correct and do better – like most places should.
        There are over 7,000 homeless people in Houston. Work is being done with transitional housing, medical care, shelters (which need to make provisions for animals) and counseling. Then there’s the maimed vets. You can see why some people are going “Wait. There’s just so much money and we have all these already.”
        Even the very poor here have a better life than many in other places. My comments pointed out that many here are ignorant the rest of the world.
        Unfortunately the middle class is disappearing – and those are the ones that pay most of the taxes. About 51% of the people here pay no taxes for various reasons.
        People have to find their own way.Neighbors should help neighbors and alleviate suffering when they can. (poor red dirt farmer philosophy there) And to insist everyone who is capable to stand on their own feet as soon as possible ( because there’s always a “new” wave coming who will need help getting their feet – that’s just the way it is.)
        My comment was only to mention human migration is happening from various places – not just Syria.
        That this region has always been welcoming. We took in the majority of Vietnamese boat immigrants due to the similar climate and fishing potential. We have a large Syrian population (and have for a long time). We love the mix. Great food. Wonderful celebrations.
        All you can do is what you can do.
        .

        Liked by 1 person

    • Not really! Just slightly racked off with small-minded comments I read, that said, nothing to do with us. Let someone else clear up the mess.
      I don’t disagree with you. Sadly, the image many Americans portray worldwide doesn’t help the national image. We have Americans coming on cruise ships thinking the US dollar is legal tender here. Since when has America ever owned Gibraltar? Suits the shipowners. They laugh all the way to the exchange rate.
      From the outside, a see a weird, almost broken system. Glossy on the outside, falling apart inside.
      As for migration. Since I was a kid the UK population has increased approx 20%. Qv my population density figures.
      I understand the border issues. Obviously!
      Poor Mollie. Sending tummy rubs. Or maybe not?

      Liked by 1 person

      • It’s a real mess, all right. While working on that Veteran’s Day post, I looked at those soldiers’ faces and compared the to the kids at the malls and neighborhoods. The maturity level so different. One used to weathering hardships with determination and goals…the others with shopping bags and charge cards – could they muster the strength if necessary or would it be a total collapse? Such an odd development.
        I shudder to think what national image the US must have right now. So I have to raise a hand once in a while.
        Dog tummies. First the German, now Molly. Virus perhaps. She’ll take the rubs! Thanks

        Liked by 1 person

        • Totally different generations. Same ages, but experiences? !!
          I don’t think my country is any different. I usually blame the Internet for everything. Not sure that’s entirely fair though.
          Rice? Usually good for gippy tum. Fed Prince on that when we first homed him. He’d had dysentry on the streets 😦

          Liked by 1 person

          • World all over is very different now in so many ways. Wonder what the shake out will be this time.
            RIce is a good idea and maybe some chicken soup. Her energy level’s not bad and she’s eating as usual, but not digesting normally with soft serve ice cream-type poop. And needing to get up at night.So I am bleary. Treated for most common worms over weekend, but if she doesn’t show improvement, we’ll have to check in with a vet. With luck things will just work itself out as usual. She’s feeling fine enough for walks and chasing cats.(But lonely and missing her sleepover friend….now if only Snowy was closer)

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          • Absolutely. Like most generations, I’ve fallen into the ‘it was better before’ trap. I mean, it’s true! It was!

            Dry food? That’s another option. Not a rich one though. Interestingly anything chicken intensive sent our dogs running for the door 🙂

            Ai. Pack animals eh. Snows is ok, but I do wonder if …

            Liked by 1 person

          • Appalling isn’t it to hear those words coming out of your mouth? Sigh.
            We only feed dry food ( if I can convince the rest of staff not to feed any people food at all until we get this figured out.) A bit of healthy yogurt to encourage good bacteria. Better today so paws crossed. (It will help if the party animals next door don’t make so much noise she objects.) Even with the problem of 2 large running bumping animals moving furniture, it is rather quiet here now….That old broadway song from My Fair Lady: “I’ve grown accustomed to her face….”

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  3. Arkenaten says:

    Quite.
    “Bombing, us? It’s a commie plot. We’re the good guys … ye haw.

    The old adage …. follow the money.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Arkenaten says:

    Oh, and which one of these comments belongs to the James and Wally gang? I am sure I have read the one with the expletives somewhere.

    Like

  5. Ruth says:

    *American hides face in shame* Not for being American, mind. Not for intervening where intervention has been necessary. But for only intervening when it suits our purposes or benefits us in some way. And for being from a country that moans and complains about repairing and/or aiding the civilians of those countries where we have intervened.

    Ben Carson(Republican Presidential Candidate) went on a tour of two refugee camps in Jordan over the weekend and came back happy to report that Syrians want to stay put. The camps are nice. They have schools and recreational facilities and everything! So they don’t really even want to come to America, anyway. He did say we should send more money to aid the camps.

    For how long will that last before there is moaning and complaining that this war has gone on far too long and we’ve spent too much money on refugee camps? How long has this war [in the Middle East] already gone on? Let’s see….2001/2002 until current, so 14ish years. And there’s no end in sight. But, yes, let’s keep all the refugees in a permanent state of limbo. That’s as good a plan as any. :/sarcasm (for anyone who can’t detect it)

    Liked by 1 person

    • That applies to all of us Ruth. America is doing no more nor less than we have all done in the past. However, to pretend the Middle East is nothing to do with America is just crass when one looks at the military record. With invasion, comes planning, and that includes post-invasion in a very culturally different country/ies.

      In the book I referred to the Italian families that wanted to go to America. No family. No sponsors. No immigration. Hence they ended up in Australia. Looks like, for a country of immigrants, America’s always had a tough anti-immigrant policy.

      Middle East war? How about Iraq, Kuwait and Iran in the 90s? More like 25 years of oil grabbing before we add in North Africa …

      What’s wrong with, ‘let’s all stop invading’. Nah. Too, too difficult. The problem is the first ones to say yes, let’s bomb them, are the first to say, nothing to do with us. We’re not picking up the pieces. And that, is the problem. Not you, or anyone else who reads my blogs.

      Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      Perhaps he could store grain in the pyramids for when the Syrians run out?

      Liked by 1 person

  6. You have much better more accurate perspectives Roughseas than many, MANY Americans, and I can safely say 90% or more of Texans! Here is how we handle Middle Eastern decendents in Irving, Texas and many other Texas towns — WARNING! This article and its images are very disturbing…

    http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/11/armed-protesters-set-up-outside-islamic-center-of-irving.html/

    The Muslim children (some toddlers) going to the mosque with their parents to freely worship were not shown in the photographs. But many of them watched these “angry mean” Protestors with their weapons highly visible shouting abusive slurs — which is why the Irving Police Dept. had no choice but to be present. I’m deeply ASHAMED to be associated (as an 8th generation Texan) with these inhumane people. This is NOT what my fleeing religiously persecuted ancestors from Europe (and the RC Church) in 1847 came here to Texas to live around or do to others! I am so utterly disappointed in my fellow Islamophobic and Central-American-phobic Texans it brings tears to my eyes — much like those tears shed by 19th century Native American Indians, or 18th century African-American slaves… who STILL deal with racism even today here in the South.

    There is nothing more to say Roughseas, other than you are pretty much spot on about radical and semi-radical nationalistic-patriotic Americans. I experience it weekly here in central Texas. 😦

    Like

    • Check that… my religious-refugee-ancestors (Waldensians) arrived off the Gulf Coast in Indianola, TX in 1845, not ’47. 🙂

      Like

    • It’s not accurate. It’s my view. Which I have backed up with a few sources. One could equally well show that the US is the largest giver of humanitarian aid, interestingly followed by Britain, I’ll look up source if you want. Given the US is approx tenth on world GDP and Britain is twenty something one could make something of that. But does throwing money always solve problems?

      Aaaah. Poor innocent America. Have you yet experienced no go Islamic areas and Sharia law in your formerly poor working class areas as exists in my birth town? Very triggering. And very culturally complex 😦 New immigrants ie 20th and 21st century ones are very different to Native American Indians or African American slaves.

      I have no answers. I think Americacentric attitudes however portray the worst of your country, when actually, the people I know via blogging aren’t like that at all. Well, the ones I like aren’t.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I have no answers. I think Americacentric attitudes however portray the worst of your country, when actually, the people I know via blogging aren’t like that at all. Well, the ones I like aren’t.

        Aww, and I like you too Roughseas! Thank you! ❤ 😉

        Depending on your lens, the answers come AFTER one has weeded through all the inaccuracies, erroneous ill-founded ideologies, and throws out the misconceived notions that Homo sapiens are defined by national borders, the color of their skin, the amount of monetary wealth they possess, how much “fear” they can conjure in order to control and manipulate others, i.e. what mythical god they worship, what gender or sexual orientation is superior or inferior… when in reality hate generated by fear and illiteracy is the only scourge of this planet, taught & propagated by very specific Homo sapiens well after their birth and questionable education. Astoundingly, they/we are the only species out of some 18 or 20 species that are not eusocial — that is, where Earth is the single offspring producer for those who enjoy splitting terminology hairs and choose to miss the analogy. LOL 😛

        Much improved eusociality and inclusive collaboration has to start, obviously. Fragmenting, divisive prejudices, and “exclusivity” or elitism must stop. 🙂

        Like

  7. Tiribulus says:

    God is not blessing America,

    Like

    • Now why would that be? You might say homosexual marriages, and bodily autonomy for women eg contraception and abortion. I might say, because America runs roughshod over other countries, flaunts wealth and power, and ignores the poor and needy. Different perceptions.

      America isn’t the land of the brave and the free. It’s the land of the greedy and selfish. But nor are we living in the days of the Pilgrim Fathers. Your god, to be honest, has nothing to do with the way a country is run. The only impact he has is the way you, and others, choose to promote your beliefs in him and try and influence law and policy.

      Thanks for your visit. Hope you are keeping well.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Tiribulus says:

        These are big topics, but my loyalty is to the kingdom of the living God and his Christ. Which is not of this world.The sooner the United States finally falls, the better as far as I’m concerned.

        Like

        • That sounds eerily similar to other “religious fundamentalists” throughout the world and their deep deep desire (or hate?) to usher in as quickly as possible the/their Apocolyptic transformation of “this world” they aren’t a part of either — it’s all the same rhetoric. YIKES! 😮

          Like

          • Tiribulus says:

            The fall of the United States is not the same as the end of world. That sir is American arrogance at it’s worst as even some of my own misguided brethren have so erroneously expressed. This country is not that important.

            Liked by 2 people

          • As you’d read in my latest reply to Roughseas, you can infer the same regarding misguided nationalism. In my opinion Nationalism is an antiquated 17th and 18th century culture. But unfortunately, I think we (you and I) would greatly disagree on any number of other issues about human existence, education, history, evolution, & human experience.

            Nevertheless, best wishes to you Sir.

            Like

          • I shouldn’t laugh, but I did. Haha. You being accused of American arrogance by a fundamentalist, hmmm, or however Tirib chooses to describe himself. Anyway, a pretty right-on The Word of The Lord etc sort of person. Of course what’s interesting, is that for the most part, what or who, we see, are Americans ushering in the fall, the Apocalypse, the second coming, Armageddon etc etc. The rest of us just want to eat, breathe, sleep, live a life.

            Liked by 1 person

          • LOL…true Roughseas. Salute! (raises wine glass or shot glass!)

            Like

          • Beer glass sweets, last one of the night.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Ruth says:

            I agree, Professor. And while Tiribulus might not be keen on assisting the fall of The United States it isn’t all that far a leap for those who believe such things. Though I’m not certain why he thinks America needs to fall for the second coming or whatever Apocalyptic transformation he believes is going to take place to be ushered in. There are so many beliefs regarding this. Pre-millennial, Post-millennial, A-millennial…there are more. Regardless, if Jesus is coming soon I don’t think he’s waiting on The United States to go up in flames first.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Tiribulus says:

            I don’t know if Jesus is coming soon. *maybe) I do know the United States of America has no special place in God’s heart. Again, big topics. Please do not allow most of the mainstream big name media preachers over here to fool you into thinking they have any idea what that bible actually teaches.

            Ruth at least knows that my beliefs are very old and are not influenced by secular patriotism.

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            I see. So you don’t mind if there’s a “one world government”. All that fear-mongering is a bit ridiculous.

            Liked by 1 person

          • After 3.5 years in seminary (Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, MS) and then 10+ years as a Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian… I know the Canonical Bible, that is the amputated Protestant bible, very very well Tiribulus. I also know that Xian apologists almost never use any non-Christian sources to verify the veracity of their New Testament. Why? Because they don’t exist.

            But my apologies, this is getting off subject from Roughseas fine post and those years of my life discussing and dialoguing with misinformed misguided faith-followers I reserve ONLY for those who can civily discuss relevant topics — including and especially those outside of Scriptures and theology — with an agape love and patience. It sadly doesn’t happen very much anymore for a variety of religious reasons. :/

            Respectfully, I do wish you well Sir.

            Like

          • Darling, go for it. You have my permission. Tirib may be missing some intellectual debate and I certainly can’t provide it. But feel free to chatter away 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Very, very well stated Ruth! ❤ 🙂

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            Oh dear. It seems you and Tiribulus may have more in common than meets the eye. You having gone to a Reformed Theological Seminary and him being a Calvinist. You may have much to discuss.

            Liked by 1 person

          • That’s what I thought 😀 I’m waiting patiently. We can cheer them on? 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • LOL…I do love dialoguing about subjects I am highly qualified to discuss. I’m happy to do it if the feeling is mutual. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Thought you were highly qualified to discuss everything … 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Well, true. I try to remain humble in my arrogantly intelligent ways. 😉

            If you done it, it ain’t bragging.
            — Walt Whitman

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          • I dare say practice may one day make perfect.

            Liked by 1 person

          • LOL…or more perfect. 😈

            Liked by 1 person

        • Yet, the rest of us who wish to enjoy our short life on this earth, try to ensure our own lives and those of others are at least tolerable, hopefully with some enjoyment somewhere. And less unpleasantness than necessary.

          You are welcome to your views about your god, and I appreciate you get solace and conviction from those beliefs. Just so long as they don’t impact on the rest of us who don’t share them.

          Where will the United States fall to?

          Liked by 1 person

          • You are welcome to your views about your god, and I appreciate you get solace and conviction from those beliefs. Just so long as they don’t impact on the rest of us who don’t share them.

            Roughseas, “not impacting the rest of us” or the world is by Scriptural obedience… NOT POSSIBLE. Being a born-again Xian — or for that matter Islamist, or Jewish, or even Taliban or ISIS(L) — gives license to them to go out into the world (they’re not part of) and ‘spread the news’ of and with “divine truth” in spirit, and divine INSPIRED truth in Scripture.

            If they are truly following and believing what their Canonical Bible teaches… they WILL knock on your front doors, or speak to you on the streets. God commands them to.

            Like

          • I am not a total idiot!! I’m just pointing out, why I’m such a nice person, saying they can believe in tooth fairies or whatever, just keep the fuck out of my face. What’s unreasonable about that?

            Like

          • Remember Darling, I was speaking from a Xian-Biblicist’s POV… not me personally. You know very well who I am in real life. It is the furtherest thing from anything religious or hinting of old antiquated traditions & mythology. 😉

            Yes, I know you are truly a nice person — until someone pisses you off. 😛

            Liked by 1 person

          • Yes, but their view is not difficult. Just think, lack of personal responsibility, misogyny, selfishness, God did it and God says, and there we have it. Who needs a bible?

            Liked by 1 person

          • LOL…HAH! A very apropos perspective and description Roughseas! ❤

            Liked by 1 person

        • makagutu says:

          I propose, instead of sitting in your couch waiting to die in your sleep, that you hasten the process and go to heaven

          Like

  8. john zande says:

    Don’t forget the CIA overthrew a lawful Australian government

    Like

  9. disperser says:

    One commenter mentioned the shrinking of the Middle Class . . . that is also tied to the anti-refugee/immigration sentiment and is, in my opinion, an overlooked and probably significant factor in play.

    I can tell you that in many instances immigrants and refugees get better/more services/aid than some of the people who are already here. But, even if not, when you have a large segment of the population that is watching their buying power, their opportunities, their assumed promise for a better future all go the way of the dodo, one should not be surprised at their resistance to people who are not bringing in more jobs, who are not bringing innovation, and who will compete for the same shrinking resources and opportunities.

    Lest someone (not that anyone here ever would, right?) assume stuff about me and what I think, let me be clear that I have no horse in this race. I live a good life, immigrants will not affect my life, refugees will not affect my life.

    As for the bombing . . . the US might have dropped more bombs, but how many of those examples were truly unilateral actions? Perhaps we should not put all the onus on who bombed the most in any given instance, but admit that yeah, we were a part of it as well.

    . . . and again, lest someone makes assumptions about what I’m saying, I’m not in favor of military action in general.

    Finally, a personal statement about immigration. I have a personal anthypathy for individuals escaping a certain way of life (which my family was when we came to the US – we were part of the refugees escaping from Yugoslavia) and then lamenting the loss of that life. I can understand a reasonable connection to one’s culture, but I’m not a big fan of Little-Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown, or any (enter-ethnicity-here)towns.

    One certainly need not adopt wholesale into a given society, but one must (yes, that strong a word) integrate into whatever society one moves to, and integration means the willingness to pick and choose what one lets go of and adopts. The goal of all human beings should be to advance and grow both as individuals and as a group. So, were I in charge, I would welcome those who have that attitude and see no use for them who don’t.

    Like

    • Your second paragraph makes a very valid point, and one can see that in every community regarding immigrants. While there is considerable fearmongering about terrorists coming in under the guise of refugees, what people are really afraid of is the impact on their pocket and standard of living. Taking jobs, depressing wages, reducing opportunities for advancement, hell, making it a struggle to tread water. That’s what people really don’t want, and as you say, immigrants need housing and financial help. Who funds it? The average person sees their taxes going towards those costs.

      I gave the examples of US military intervention because the two commenters I quoted were both American and wanted to have nothing to do with refugees and were washing their hands of the problem. Let’s be honest, America is not ‘a part of it’. America leads all joint interventions/invasions, and without American firepower aka money, I doubt very much the rest of us would be going in on our own. And however you look at it, America’s track record of invading other countries is appalling. Unless one takes pride in that, in which case America is top of the class with a gold star.

      I didn’t realise you were some of the Croation ones. In fact, until I read the book I mentioned, I knew nothing about any of that. Or that Italy once extended so far down that coastline. And that specific areas have been hotly disputed over the years. It was a real eye-opener.

      Your comments about Little Italy etc remind me of all the British pubs, British shops etc on the Mediterranean Andalucían Coast ie Costa del Sol. Why come to Spain to create Little Britain? Why not learn Spanish? Why drive down to Gibraltar to shop at an English supermarket? Why leave Britain in the first place? (Weather, usually)

      I think there’s a difference between people who are forced to move ie refugees however, and people who voluntarily up sticks. I agree there should be integration and a degree of picking up and letting go, but I can see the attraction for a life one was forced to leave and can never regain. It’s very emotive heartstrings sort of stuff. Not everyone is wired with sufficient toughness and pragmatism.

      Like

  10. EllaDee says:

    I can’t pontificate about anything. And it’s such a complex issue. Anything to do with people is. I have a good life. I have opinions. I know what I’d like to see. I know how I’d like to be treated if I was a person seeking asylum. I’d like compassion. It’s a pity that the asylum process is caught up in bureaucracy, politics and business. I think we’d be better to treat like with like. Treat inhumanity with humanity. But it sort of gets lost in budgets and polices and votes. As a nation Australia doesn’t have a great record either… genocide, brutality and marginalisation. Australia’s asylum process isn’t perfect either but there are people who make it through whose lives it makes a positive difference to. But sadly there is a disconnect. Many people do not feel as I do, rather they fear, even though accepting people seeking asylum into their countries won’t affect their lives to any great degree. And the media makes money off it.

    Like

    • I think a lot of people are genuinely concerned about the Syrian refugees. But to me, the Middle East is a disaster zone, and I just do not have enough knowledge or time to pronounce anything remotely intelligent on it. It is indeed one very complex issue and it’s just not an area I’ve ever studied.

      I think we all know how we’d like to treated, but these people aren’t *us* are they? They are *others*. And this is so much of the issue. Different culture, different religion, different skin colour, etc etc. They aren’t remotely like *us*. The fact that we are all people underneath that exterior fails to get noticed.

      Australia had taken shedloads of people in when we were there, around Redfern etc, but I think some of the more recent actions have somewhat tarnished the record. As for the genocide, I think the Brits can fully take the blame for that. Of course in terms of nationality, at what point does one refer to the original penal colonists as British or Australian? With your family history hat on, maybe you’ve got the answer?

      Like

      • Arkenaten says:

        Humane reasons, say help and worry about the consequences later.
        Militant Islamic groups within adopted countries are, in many case, polarizing these societies, especially where Sharia law is being aggressively pushed.

        There are examples of this in the UK. I am not familiar with others.
        This polarization is evident even among Muslims born and raised in said countries, even though they are, Finish, English, Swedish, German, French etc.

        But the religion and the culture it spawns always seems to come first.
        Furthermore, on the face of it, with the massive influx of refugees, It isn’t going to get better any time soon,largely because the issues are, it seems, being approached arse-backwards by those who live in secular democracies and ( in Europe at least) respect an individual’s right to follow their own religion.

        ”It’ll never happen here”.

        Maybe it won’t. But it certainly looks a bit iffy, and that’s no maybe.

        Like

        • The numbers are worrying. Not in my lifetime but … maybe in your kids? Of course, the fundy Xtians could start a breeding race with the fundy Muslims. What a dire situation. The sooner the next Ice Age, or a comet, or well a thing wipes out the disaster humanity makes of the earth would be less painful.

          Like

    • disperser says:

      FYI, http://dispersertracks.com/2012/01/28/path-003-photos-around-the-house-grandfathers-binoculars/

      I use the word emigrated in the article, but actually we escaped. My stepfather tried twice, the first time he was captured and spent time working in a mine. The second time he got help from some locals and he made it to Italy.

      We lived in Italy a number of years until we were sponsored by some relatives in Chicago. That too is an interesting story, but only really relevant to us (me). We came to the US with literally four suitcases to our name.

      Like

  11. makagutu says:

    Bomb them, send a few boots on the ground, support a puppet in the name of democracy and then leave. This seems to be the policy the US employs. I don’t know how successful it is.

    Like

  12. Tiribulus says:

    Ruth says: “Oh dear. It seems you and Tiribulus may have more in common than meets the eye. You having gone to a Reformed Theological Seminary and him being a Calvinist. You may have much to discuss.”

    No Ruth. Sorry. We have nothing in common and nothing to discuss. Guys (girls too) with his background are a dime a dozen online and I have other priorities to deal with. Far more concerning are the apostates still claiming Christ AND Calvinism. It is no hand wringing shock to me to learn that yet one more has forsaken the faith. Right on schedule.

    My point above is that I don’t know that the United States plays any particular role in eschatology at all. That is an evangelical (whatever that means anymore) presumption based on people’s assumption that the fact they live someplace makes it more important than other places people have lived.

    Like

    • Tirib. That’s slightly unfair, the Professor was willing to engage in discussion with you, and you did spend a lot of time exchanging views with Ruth, who has also forsaken the faith.

      Although interesting that you think place of domicile – does that include nationality? – has no bearing on superiority. I guess your superiority comes from your chosen status which transcends anything earthly.

      Like

  13. xPraetorius says:

    A truly dumb post, Clouds.

    Each night, billions of people around the world go to sleep with one fervent prayer on their lips: that the American Marines would come visit their country as they visited Afghanistan and Iraq and Grenada and, and, and …

    Everywhere the American military has gone, defeated some enemy and left, they’ve left behind peace, stability, democracy and … freedom. Oh, and a liberated, grateful population.

    It’s only in the last couple of generations, when the political left sank its fangs into American foreign policy, that the idea of America fighting a war, but not winning it outright came into being. That’s the atrocious, death-dealing idea of “proportional response.”

    The model of fighting an all-out war, in order to win the war — as in World War II — is the only way to engage in warfare.

    Best,

    — x

    Like

    • @X

      “The model of fighting an all-out war,”

      Which failed miserably in Vietnam. The US created a moonscape, dropping more total tonnage of bombs that in WW2. Your assertion is baseless.

      Everywhere the American military has gone…

      Has left behind instability, sectarian divide and misery.

      The model of fighting an all-out war, in order to win the war

      Among the reasons why the US isn’t ‘winning the wars’ anymore is because they are not based on any sort of ethical justification other than the ideal ‘that since we have the biggest stick we should run the world’. The national interests of the US isn’t exactly the most noble banner to flock behind.

      “The model of fighting an all-out war

      Requires(d) the strong intervention of the government in the war time economy and the curtailing of individual liberties. Kinda like fascism-light, we don’t call it that when we do it, but that is what it was.

      So, this fascism, which is a necessary part of any ‘total war’, is the way you think the world should be run.

      Fascinating stuff.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks for replying to this. I luckily had more important things to do so didn’t get round to it until now and you beat me to it with far more eloquence. Although on the same lines. Mine would have been one word: Vietnam.

        Liked by 1 person

        • @RSitM

          Your welcome. 🙂

          The defense likely to be raised is that Vietnam is the case, par excellence, of liberal meddling in America’s War machine.

          Many objections of these sort are based on a misreading of the historical American zeitgeist of the times. It is only when elite consensus had generally agreed that too much blood and treasure was being expended that the ‘history friendly’ anti-war movement really took off. So the boogy-man of ‘those damn liberals fucking everything up” isn’t really relevant, or accurate.

          The other corollary that comes from the idea of ‘total war’ thinking is the implicit acknowledgement that genocide is on the table. Total war is, in essence, killing enough people who are thinking/believing/behaving one way, in order to make them stop.

          I would posit that someone who portends to hold just ethical beliefs would not endorse such a stratagem based on genocide.

          Of course, a close reading of the bible reveals that genocide is a-fucking-okay, and thus would be permissible to those holding ‘righteous’ christian beliefs and morality.

          So perhaps, the genocide that is Total War, is permissible from a certain christian point of view.

          Liked by 1 person

          • I was, as ever, thinking far more simplistically, and wondering how many Vietnamese would be lying in bed at night thinking please *insert god of choice* don’t let those damn Americans invade again and kill all my friends and relatives and devastate our country.
            But yeah, I take your point about those annoying liberals. They will be the same ones who agree with gay marriage, abortion, control of guns, and all those other evil infringements and desecration of true human rights.

            Liked by 1 person

          • @RSitM

            And the people of Laos and Cambodia as well.

            They are classified as unpeople, so their fear, their shattered lives, their ruined countries are immaterial to the grand historical narrative that is being told…

            Damn, this total war idea is just sounding more peachy by the second.

            Liked by 1 person

    • See Arb’s reply, that’s good enough for me.

      However, should you choose to criticise and challenge posts and comments on this blog, I too have rules, which needless to say are no doubt diametrically opposed to yours.
      There may be a policy deeply hidden somewhere.
      Primarily, please do not insult minority disadvantaged groups by sloppy and careless use of language.
      I appreciate you are American and dumb is a common term for calling people for what they do/think/speak/write: stupid. But this is a British blog, and I consider using dumb is insensitive in that context as it perpetuates the concept that people who can’t speak are stupid.
      Before you think I’m picking on you, this applies to everyone whether they share my views or not. I’m generous that way.
      Seriously, if you want to be critical and insulting that’s okay, but please choose your words more thoughtfully.
      Thanks for reading a different post 🙂

      Like

  14. violetwisp says:

    Should I send dp over here? I think he’d enjoy the fame and attention. Nice post, but getting this out of Terriblush was something of a surprise:
    “The sooner the United States finally falls, the better as far as I’m concerned.”

    Like

  15. Tiribulus says:

    roughseasinthemed says:”Too droll. How about because he liked the sound of his own voice? 🙂 ”
    No maam. He would then have to be his own creator. An impossibility.

    Like

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