The Ark and I are not best pals at the moment. Not that we ever were, but anyway, our recent exchanges give some good examples of sexism.
Firstly, we have, him telling me how to exercise following my broken ankle. I broke my ankle 22 months ago. I have to say the advice about atrophy and flexibility is a little tardy. However, one must always appreciate advice from a superior being.
Next Ark writes about abortion and draws parallels with being vegetarian.
This is a difficult one for anyone to grasp if they aren’t vegetarian, but he’s basically saying – I think – that if you oppose abortion on the grounds you are killing something, then you shouldn’t eat meat. I can follow that logic (don’t agree with it) but I doubt most people can. Or I could be wrong.
But Ark is uncomfortable with abortion:
Not in the least. I am just not informed enough on this subject.
It just makes me uncomfortable that’s all.
I in no way inferred that I would be happy to override a woman’s right to her body in any manner whatsoever.
Your attempt at trying to put words into to my mouth smacks of petulance, a trait you seem to have demonstrated quite the flair for of late.
Ah. Petulance. Don’t you just love it? Nice way to demean women.
If it was a man, it would be. Assertive. Standing up for their rights.
Women? Petulance. Nice tactic.
You interpretation is incorrect.
You did not even ask why it makes me feel uncomfortable?
But then you are not known for your tact?
(You will find the word in the dictionary
It’s near tacky.)
And now you can whistle ….
Sexist put down?
Now now, RS, you really don’t need to be be such a bitch.
What do you know indeed?
In explanation:
Abortion makes men feel uncomfortable.
Can someone tell me why I need to ask men why abortion makes them feel uncomfortable?
Periods, pregnancy, childbirth, abortion, menopause, make women feel uncomfortable.
Hmmm, but, maybe I need to ask the men first to decide about that.
Tact
This from the man who calls people dickhead at every drop of the hat.
Me, merely a public servant employed in PR.
Bitch?
Seriously?
This is derogatory, insulting, dismissive language.
And people wonder why some women are feminist?
Finally
Abortion is only the business of one person. And she’s a woman.
roughseasinthemed
Clouds moving in 
Feel better now?
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Saved clogging up your blog.
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Oh,I don’t mind you clogging one bit. All sorts visit the Ark’s. Some to have fun, others to make a silly fool of themselves.
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You might want to rethink that last one. But if you are cocooned in your cute little environment, go for it. You always were sexist. Guess you never did get it, even if you did change the shooter in Pourne. Hey, I try. But people need to be willing. Most aren’t. It’s life.
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You are entitled to believe what you want, of course,
And you will always be inclined to speak your mind, even if you seem not to always engage your brain before doing so.
But it just so happens that some of my best friends are women.
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That’s on a par with saying ‘I’m not racist, I have black friends’. Do you say that too?
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I actually don’t have any black friends.
I do have a few sort of brown ones. Does this count? Oh, and John Zande. But then I don’t know what colour he is. Should I check first?
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Actually I’m more interested with your claim that you have women friends. That is the most worn saddest excuse for not being sexist in the world. You are on a par with Andrew Petcher. And that is saying something. (Previously thought all sexist comments were ok because he had women friends. I lie. Ladies 🙂 )
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Well,my wife for one. She’s my bestist friend in the world – and she’s a woman. Can you believe it?
I have no idea who Andrew Petcher is and have no desire to JFGI either.
I ‘honestly can’t say if all of my woman friends are ladies. How does one tell?
Do you know?
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Yes. It’s a bit like me saying I’m not misandryst because my mate is my best friend. Don’t count.
The point about the claim is that having friends of colour, of the opposite sex has stuff all to do with whether or not you are sexist or racist. But I guess you don’t understand that. AP came from the same pov. That was the only relevance.
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So if I say say some of my best friends are black women that must make me a sexist racist? Or would that be a racist sexist?
How about if I say:One of my friends is a black Muslim women and she’s also gay. And the little woman who does my ironing might be a lesbian, but I’m okay with it.
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No. Either you are missing the point or you don’t understand. Saying I’m not racist, islamophobic, homophobic because I acknowledge these people doesn’t mean anything. But, people say that, to point out they are not, x, y amd z. It is totally irrelevant.
Um, can we pick up later, sleepytimes here.
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Sure. I’m watching a movie as we chat.
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While I really do love a good Blog-Spat, in the interest of clarity and for the sake of the sanity of both of your other readers, here is the comment that started this particular ball rolling:
You can catch it all here …. in colour too. With more swear words too, I think?
Not to clog up my blog and all that …. right?
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Fair enough. Although you are still sexist 🙂
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Generally only with people who are daft enough to think so.
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I’m not entirely sure you have a clue what this is about.
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Well as long as you are not entirely sure, then there is always hope.
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No hope for you though 😦
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“Petulant” certainly fits the bill, but not about you. 🙂
I’ve been accused of using language as a weapon, and I had to train myself not to fall automatically into sarcasm when faced with what struck me as uninformed arguments. I still get accused of talking down to people occasionally, which is, I suppose, at least in part because of using at times an academic and even didactic writing style. But the Internet is a unique medium of expression, not solely because it functions via the written word, but because it does so, so rapidly. We never seemed to need emoticons as easers of potential stress, before the Internet came along.
Speaking of ankles, I severely sprained mine several years back, affecting all involved ligaments, and I swear it took two years to recover as far as it has. I read an article last year suggesting that people don’t really ever completely recover from ankle sprains and that the resultant foot pain can be permanent. Best advice I have about feet is Thorlo socks. They are very expensive but they do help, in my experience. I understand that sprains are different than breaks, but might help anyway. Good luck with further recovery.
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I think we all use sarcasm/talk down to people. It’s lazy I suppose. It’s amazing how fast people trype, oops type these days. I hate emoticons and smilies 😦
Never heard of Thorlo socks, so thanks. I’ve had bad sprains before, and a fracture, and ripped a ligament. But they were all pre aged 20. I think healing is slightly different post 50, which was partly my point to Ark in our original ‘discussion’ where he proffered his original tardy advice regarding atrophy and exercise. My consultant took every opportunity to remind me that I’d had ‘a very nasty break’ which I was well aware of. Trying to stand on it immediately was even more painful than kidney stones. And that’s saying something.
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I beg to differ. You two were definitely best pals and I’m confident you can patch it up. Ark has clearly had personal tragedy connected with premature babies dying or something similar. I think when it comes to abortion we all have to be careful about not stamping over other people’s tragedies and life experience. And probably best not to blurt out guesses about personal lives in public places.
I’m sure that kind of insensitivity is something I could never be guilty of because I’m extremely thoughtful and never get into arguments. If you need any tips, just holler. 😉
(PS Ark is completely sexist, but he’s made great progress since he met you.)
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violetwisp the peacemaker?! Whatever next?!
Whatever his, or anyone else’s experience, I agree that when the personal meets theory, things often get messy. That’s why I like theory 🙂 no messy people involved.
I’m sure between us we could pull together a rather sophisticated guide on how to be a thoughtful blogger, never offend people, and avoid arguments.
I think you said that before. And I remember wondering what on earth he was like before. Probably demanding sarnies with JZ.
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Not so much the peacemaker, as you know. He’s in furious strop with me over at his place for daring to paste his words after he accused me of lying. And that’s just the stuff on my posts, all the incriminating evidence on his posts is deleted. He’s so petulant and touchy.
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Ah. Just managed to read it all. Things were different in 2013 eh? Must have been before I found you as I noticed one comment I made on yours was from the year after.
I guess it’s difficult viewing the world from within a stone head. Sort of skews one’s perspective. But as your best pal Pink says, intent is all. So if the intention is good, it doesn’t matter what anyone says. Does it?
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That’s cheating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! According to this cadence it is/would be off limits to use the word petulant to describe a(ny) woman- because that’s automatically sexism. That doesn’t seem reasonable.
Some people are petulant. So shouldn’t we be asking how we discern between a random analysis and a sexist analysis? And why Ark’s would fall (if it does, although I’m not yet satisfied with the evidence) into the 2nd category?
As with the law, I feel intent is a major factor. I hardly believe Ark wakes up every morning prepared to embark on an anti-woman agenda. We’re simply human beings who have all spent our lives internalizing social messages. For the most part I think our “blog-circle” has done pretty well where intent and consciousness are concerned. That’s got to count for something 😉
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If you want to discuss analysis, I would suggest starting with the idea that a man being married to a woman whom he claims is his best friend automatically exempts him from being accused of sexism. By this standard, any male married blogger could use this claim to silence such criticisms, no matter what his online behavior might constitute.
Are we to assume that no men are sexist other than those who are unilaterally disliked by all women? Or that all women are equally aware of sexism, or that no woman ever excuses or overlooks sexism in male partners and/or friends for a variety of reasons, conscious and unconscious both? Should we assume that such overlooking and excusing of sexism in men is not wholeheartedly culturally encouraged? “Boys will be boys.”
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My dear, you just wrote two long paragraphs that have no relation whatsoever to anything I said.
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I am addressing the whole conversation. And I am not your dear.
Really, all these comments are serving well to illustrate RSITM’s points.
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My dear or darling are simply speech patterns. I use them regularly with most people I encounter, in French, English and Spanish- and let me just clarify I don’t need your permission to do so.
You answered my comment by going into topics I hadn’t addressed in any way. So I have no idea what you were responding to, but it certainly had no bearing on anything I said.
As for your other comments, it’s probably better not to mention fallacies in the same comment where you say “one of the things men often do to women in order to try to silence us.” Ah yes, that’s the fallacy of generalization.
Apples are red
Strawberries are red
So a strawberry is an apple.
So consider that perhaps if someone tries to silence *you*, it might not be sexism at all, it might just be because what you’re saying is nonsensical.
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He does call people dear and darling, as do I. Well, darling, not so much ‘dear’. My dear does smack of oozing condescension.
But I don’t usually call people darling on first acquaintance.
Normally I would refer to him as darling, but he certainly isn’t being one today.
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Why does her suggestion of starting with analysis have no bearing on what you said. You are up and about early today. Does that account for your grumpiness?
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My points were:
1. The criticism of a person in group cannot be automatically read as a criticism of an entire group/collective.
2. How do we differentiate individual criticism from group criticism ?
3. Does context not play a role in it?
4. Should we not take fondation into account? As I mentioned before in the Germaine Greer case i.e. Is she really the sort of person who believes in oppression?
Miep then goes on to not answer any of those points, choosing instead to embark on a hypothetical about her cousin’s maid’s dog’s husband who may or may not be sexist.
2.
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But you didn’t say that 🙂 As one of my directors once said to me: You think too fast. People can’t catch up.
Or in simple terms, you and I need to spell things out.
However, her answer is no more or less irrelevant than yours. And, she did grasp the issue, about paternalism, which I failed to explain adequately (see above).
Would you like me to answer your points darling?
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Having re-read my comment, I think what I said is reasonably clear 🙂
And of course I want you to answer.
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Obviously it would be clear. And anyone to whom it wasn’t immediately clear would be dismissed. Unworthy.
Anyway, I need a quick walk in a feeble attempt to exercise, so go wander round the estate until I come back.
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Main Street was annoyingly busy. Ugh. I’ll reply down the bottom to avoid nesting. Give me time to recover from encountering people 😦
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Oh, btw, VW’s default position when anyone challenges her is that the reason is sexism (not just regarding Ark.) Amusing, as her default position for why someone might agree with me is that they’re my *minions* 😉
In one of our first interactions she went as far as to say I must “hate women.” That then became a refrain on Askthbigot. Of course all gay men hate women, right? Could that be playing to traditional homophobia based on traditional misogyny?
It’s obviously derivative of a religious mindset. The assignation of responsibility is biased and convenient. It’s easier for her to blame sexism than to confront the idea that what she’s saying is rubbish. And if someone agrees with me that equally injures her ego, so she needs an external justification to protect the ego.
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@RS
Anyway, I need a quick walk in a feeble attempt to exercise, so go wander round the estate until I come back.
Imagine if you had a static bike already then you could exercise and continue this conversation and still swear.( at me at least)
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I don’t like indoor exercise. I also dislike exercise for the sake of it. Er, haven’t we been here before?
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Well at the out set of this saga, I don’t recall you specifically saying either of these two things.
But as the intent of my initial suggestion had no sexist overtones or undertones – although you managed to find some – was solely to hasten repair to the ankle then there is a definite purpose to the exercise and the static bike would ensure you were in a controlled environment.
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Ark. I broke my ankle nearly two years ago. Is that clear? 22 months to be specific. Telling me that I would have muscle atrophy and need to exercise is on a par with telling me I am a stupid idiot (that may be true). However. It was neither helpful nor timely, and merely came across as patronising. Seriously, why do you think telling me about your recovery in your youth was remotely helpful to me as a mid fifties woman nearly two years after the event? And add to that, I specifically say I loathe indoor exercise.
Finally, you are doing it yet again. You are telling me what to do because You. Know. Better.
Jesus Ark. Just drop it.
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Okay. If ever you get bitten by a spider and wonder if it is medically significant to humans I’ll just write JFGI.
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Unlikely in spain/gib. But can you tell me a little sooner? That would be really, really helpful. Ta. Ever so much.
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Warn you before a spider bites you?
You’ll have to consult a gitano, I don’t do fortune telling.
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Ah, some sanity.
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Also, just for the record: as one of the “two other readers” of this blog, I have noted that when I comment here, I get enough referrals to my blog from this one to strongly suggest that the readership here is larger than mine, and I am running around 2500 views a month lately. So how is it sane or reasonable or adult to diss someone in such an inaccurate way?
As far as “petulant” goes, one of the things men often do to women in order to try to silence us is to imply we are children. That’s the point. Sure, anybody can be petulant, but it’s a common derailing technique to dismiss observations of patterns of behavior in defined groups by cherry-picking examples that don’t fit these observations, which is, by the way, a named logical fallacy. Otherwise, making comments questioning the sanity of the person you are debating is simply gaslighting.
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Also, I don’t mean, myself, to be questioning the sanity of this Ark guy. I just don’t see what he’s doing as being very good debating. Instead of belittling a woman who says you are behaving in a sexist manner, you have the option of trying to understand what it is about what you are doing that is offending her, though it has been my experience that men do not learn about this stuff unless they are genuinely interested in trying to understand it, and I’m not seeing that here.
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”….this Ark guy” ?
WTF!
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I’m sure you’ve been called worse 🙂
Haven’t you?
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What my blog ….
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The Ark guy is sane AFAIK, just sexist. Occasionally. Apparently he’s improved.
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Hariod has a sterling record in insulting me. But apparently I’m woman enough to take it all without complaint.
Thanks for explaining the petulant thing and the male desire to infantilise as a put-down. I take it for granted people understand that, and forget they aren’t all quite so evolved.
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Automatic categorizations are rarely a good idea. Did you ever read Umberto Eco’s essay on political correctness?
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“Think of the phenomenon of political correctness in America. This sprang from the desire to encourage tolerance and the recognition of all differences, religious, racial, and sexual, and yet it is becoming a new form of fundamentalism that is affecting everyday language in a practically ritual fashion.”
– Umberto Eco
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One of your differently insulting comments Hariod. I’m impressed.
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I spoke too soon.
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I’m sure you’ve admitted to cheating before now 🙂
Some people are petulant at times. But according to my dictionaries, the definition of petulant is not ‘disagreeing with Ark’. Apart from wanton and lascivious in one dictionary, another one has childishly sulky or bad-tempered. And, although you chose to disagree, Miep addresses that last definition very well.
The only law on here is mine. My blog, my law. Just like every other blog owner. And quite frankly, ‘I didn’t mean to be racist/sexist/homophobic’ is an utterly feeble statement from intelligent people.
I don’t think he does either. But once we accept we are socially conditioned, surely we can start to think outside that?
Our ‘blog circle’ ???
Of course whatever our ‘blog circle’ is has done ‘pretty well’. It would when no one makes a fuss.
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I think we all do accept we’re socially conditioned, don’t we?
And Miep is annoying, reminds me of Violet. Simplistic answers to complex questions. And I can say that without it being sexist. For all I know they’re 5 foot tall penises who get around by bouncing on giant testicles.
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Yes, it’s refreshing seeing you being a patronising, arrogant dickhead to other people as well.
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Nice Ark word usage there violetwisp. It would obviously appear to be Pink’s day for dismissing female brains (;)) and preferring the rational logic so employed by men.
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Hello giant penis!
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I doubt vw will answer. Although I’d be interested if she did.
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I don’t find Miep annoying at all. The fact that she disagrees with you doesn’t make her necessarily annoying to everyone else. She perfectly summarised the issue about petulance which I was too lazy to do, whereas you ran off with a load of excuses. As you would say, context.
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“Oh, btw, VW’s default position when anyone challenges her is that the reason is sexism (not just regarding Ark.)”
Am I VW? Are you spouting random nonsense out just to see if I lurk? Em, liar, liar, bum’s on fire. I’m trying to think in the context of any discussion with you I might have said that – I’d be interested to see it. You definitely reek of male privilege in your attitude, smothered in a thick layer of class and educational privilege, and with a thin veneer of total insecurity. As far as I remember, Ark is the only person I’ve accused of sexism in Blogland. And if you read what he wrote you couldn’t possibly object. Oh, and John’s sandwich joke. Kisses.
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-Nope. You accused me of sexism the first time I said you were an idiot, or imbecile, I can’t remember which. You said I was trying to shut you up. I think it was a discussion on prostitution.
-I’m not even entertaining your privilege comments.
-No knowledge of your sandwich incident.
Kisses 😘
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P.S. I’m an equal opportunity dismisser. I’m happy to dismiss “brains” of any gender, religion, sexuality, nationality or level of education if they’re not making a solid case. I dismiss Wally, I dismiss Colourstorm, Faust, David Cameron, Mariano Rajoy, Jean Luc Melenchon, Violet and so forth.
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I thought you dismissed most people by default. The ones who remain being the exception. That’s a fairly reasonable list, and while I normally disagree with vw she has been quite nice on this thread, so today, clearly I can’t agree with her inclusion. Yesterday and tomorrow maybe different stories.
The point about including vw today is that she has always maintained Ark is sexist, although what I can not fathom, is why on earth she thinks I may have made a difference.
And. Finally. You, do not get to define what is sexist language. Unless it is used against you in a derogatory fashion linking wimpy gays with useless women as non-macho male. In this particular instance, I don’t think commenting on Ark’s blog about abortion merited a put-down of petulance.
PS my comment about brains was a sarcastic reference to the ‘female’ brain and ‘male’ brain. Just in case you or anyone else didn’t get it. Personally I would differentiate between rational, logical, etc but that tends to veer towards psychometrical analysis.
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Just for the record, RS, as it relates to this whole nonsense, did you, in fact, hurt yourself again after your initial injury, or did I imagine you wrote this?
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1) Sexist insults are not nonsense.
2) falling out may be nonsense.
3) I fell over a few times due to dodgy balance, still surprised I can stand and walk tbh. But no, I didn’t do any more than any normal fally over thing that people do in the same situation. Usually due to rushing. No further sprains, breaks, or ripped/pulled ligaments. So far.
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I really hope the two of you will patch things up and remain blog friends, because that is what we all are here RS and Ark, whether we see other like that or not. I see you both as my blog friends and whether you do or don’t is not my concern. Also, what you think of me is also none of my business.
I am also not going to say who was right and who was wrong. I’ve learned that it’s always better to try and be more understanding to alternative views. It’s not what you say that is important. It’s how you perceive it.
Both of you must step back and ask yourselves what has initiated the argument and your involvement. Then the reasons for and purpose of the argument. Remember, sometimes we hold fantasies of how life and people are supposed to be, instead of facing the true and balanced beauty of how life and people actually are. As humans we need to grow and to grow we have to make mistakes and learn from them. To take each other on and badmouth each other, is not going to resolve anything.
You are both intelligent and caring people and that is what I see and like. You don’t have to agree with everything the other says, but always try and do it in a respective manner. I know I don’t like to see the two of you fighting like this. It makes me sad. To criticize or get angry with either of you, is not going to help any of you either.
Conflict is a normal part of life and if this fight is worth more than your friendship that the two of you do have, then please continue, but don’t expect me to say anything further about it. ♥
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She initiated it. She’s a big ol’ meany.
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It was him. He started it. Sexist. Violet says so. Therefore:true 🙂
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Good gods!( your choice) That is as blatant a sexist remark as I have ever read in my entire life since I understood what sexism was.
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Remind me when you understood the meaning of sexism. Marksman.
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Near enough.
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One of your better attempts. In the end 🙂
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Be nice, kids. 😆
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Stop being reasonable. Not the point. Yeah, it’s good. But, it does’t invalidate his sexism.
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I like being reasonable and all those labels doesn’t mean anything in the end. Life is short. Let’s enjoy it. 😀 ♥
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