Because it’s a woman’s fault.
A third of Britons believe a woman who acts flirtatiously is partially or completely to blame for being raped, according to a new study.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say “no” clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible.
Yes. Of course, it’s a woman’s fault that a man sticks his penis inside a woman without her consent.
Heavens, why on earth would it not be our fault?!
How about raping a 13-year-old? Her fault too I guess?
But, don’t stop there if you aren’t aware of UK rape cases. Try this:
And,
Or,
My heart really goes out to men who are struggling with equality and think they are having their rights taken away. Also, I appreciate the ones who give a passing gesture towards feminism. Thanks for the acknowledgement.
Meanwhile, girls are being raped in the UK FFS. This is not Somalia or Rwanda or wherever. It is meant to be a first world country. And this shit is happening. Still.
Defences:
- Low IQ
Really? I’m stupid so it’s OK to rape women.
- Growing up without a father figure.
So no daddy means it’s OK to rape women.
- Doing drugs.
So, it’s OK …
- Oh, my wife died, poor me.
So it’s OK to rape a teenager and get five years because the 63-year-old thought she was older
- Having firearms
- Expressing regret (having committed 12 rapes)
A learning disability and a low IQ plus not taking part in gang rape is a plus.
It’s good that ordinary rape isn’t really an issue any more isn’t it?
Now it has to be gang rape before it matters.
Got to look after the poor challenged men.
roughseasinthemed
Clouds moving in 
For the life of me, I cannot even grasp how anyone could possibly be turned on if the other is resisting. The wiring has to be all wrong.
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Nothing to do with sexual attraction. Rape has always been about power, control, and abuse. Although there are men who do the rape fantasy thing …
Men are my mates, but, there are some sick fuckers out there 😦
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No doubt.
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What? That I have mates? Or there are sick nasties? Really, these UK cases are horrific. The excuses are pathetic. What is difficult to understand about don’t stick your penis where it isn’t wanted? And young teens? A sixty-year-old man is, oh just vile.
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You’re from journalism, so of course you have mates 😉
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Journos don’t have mates. We’re too competitive.
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@JZ
Have you seen what society teaches men about women? Consider the whole – “no means yes – debacle, and how often it comes up.
There isn’t very much faulty wiring going, but a lot of society teaching men the wrong messages and ideas about women.
Volumes of literature, trope-ish and otherwise, make female distress into a fetish – damsel in distress anyone? Consider the 50 shades of bullshit phenomena and the kinksters that prey on women.
Consider how messed up a society is when many women’s fantasies revolve around being ‘taken’ (raped) and it is the only fantasy they are socialized to have…
I’m not sure where you’re demarcating your argument, but I would think that ‘a few bad apples’ is less correct then the idea of ‘rotten superstructure’ that breeds this malfeasance.
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When I wrote about BDSM, one commenter (who I don’t know) wrote:
Well, no, it’s not. That’s true. But why would anyone, man or woman fantasise about it? I am not sure which worries me worse, women fantasising about it, or men wanting to ‘play’ out rape scenes. The latter of course, I don’t need to think about it. That men get a kick out of ‘pretending’ to rape women has my hair standing on end. I read a book involving multiple rapes last week and had nightmares for two nights. The sort of nightmare where I start shouting in my sleep and my partner has to wake me up. The notion that rape is a fantasy that any woman has, let alone all women have, is a serious problem. And we see it in films all the time, from Gone With The Wind to Buffy, Cazavampiras. It’s the whole, ‘they said yes once, so therefore that means in perpetuity’ syndrome. Real rape isn’t the handsome film star having sex with their partner. Real rape is about fear, terror, and being totally out of control.
The last point on the list above refers to a woman being responsible for being raped if she is walking alone in a dangerous/deserted area. I’ve done that. I went back to the cloakroom at a nightclub and when I came back out my friends had left. No taxis, no people and the club was shut. What was I supposed to do apart from walk through a dangerous deserted area at 3 am? That was one of the longest walks I’ve ever taken.
But over and above that, that we even consider a woman is responsible for being raped shows how deep the indoctrination goes.
And in the cases I linked to, we are talking about teenage girls below the age of consent. So consent isn’t even the point here, sex with 13-year-old girls is illegal. Although clearly if you have a low IQ or lack a father figure it’s OK to rape a 13-year-old girl. Or probably any woman really.
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Fantasizing about a thing and doing a thing does not take a very large leap. Fantasizing about rape or role-playing rape scenarios borders on psychopathy.
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There’ve got to be many women my age who, looking back over their lives, think to themselves, “How fortunate that I’ve never been raped” . . . and doesn’t it just make you SICK to think of the people who have been. 😦
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I’m not sure how one can express the fear of being raped. And not just raped, but raped and murdered, because, the rapist often doesn’t want to leave tracks. Ugh.
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There are also many women half our age who have been raped, but have talked themselves into believing otherwise.
This was a discovery I’ve made talking to young women online. Many of them have been raped by men of their acquaintance, but have rationalized that by “shrugging it off” as no big deal, it happens to everyone, and besides I provoked and/or wanted it.
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That’s the whole if there’s no knife at your throat/gun at your head, and you might have said no but you aren’t being threatened with murder so it’s not really rape scenario isn’t it? Or I’d had a drink/was flirting/showed cleavage and or legs etc etc.
And this is rape. Look at the countless unreported sexual assualts there are. I know. No evidence. There wouldn’t be if they aren’t reported would there? I know you’re only digging around various blogs right now but Ruth did a good post on sexual assault last year. Well worth a read.
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Absolutely.
I am very familiar with this issue, R. Too familiar, in fact.
I’m digging around this new corner of the world, yes, but I’m somewhat of a veteran of these wars, too. My online activism started way back when, during Bush days, and I have had the distinct displeasure to battle many anti-feminists and MRA types since.
I don’t post under this moniker on other social media, and that it because I have encountered and angered many MRA with grudges and long memories who would be personally all too happy to dox me.
I’m also somewhat tired of those battles, frankly. They must be fought, no doubt, but banging one’s head against the wall gets tedious after a while, not to mention achy.
So I am very, very glad to see others do it 🙂 — and to support them, too.
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I’ve never had the patience to engage with MRAs. It wouldn’t be good for my health. Engaging with non-MRAs is bad enough.
My earlier internet years were more indulgent, frequenting radfem forums 🙂
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I am probably more familiar with MRA-n-ilk than feminists in their many variations.
No, it’s not healthy. Spending time with misogynist narcissistic psychopaths has a very real potential to bend one’s spirit. Same with Christofascists, who are really no different.
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I agree, they are similar, in as much as they deny women rights and a life and well, just anything really. I’ve commented on a few christocryptics, but for the most part I leave those alone. MRAs? No. I could not go there. Intellectually challenged comes to mind. I’ll take your word for it.
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I know exactly what you mean, Emma. I have spoken with young women who were dated raped–
three, in fact. They didn’t report the rapes because they were humiliated and the fact that they were drinking led them to thinking that THEY, themselves, were responsible for the attack. It’s messed-up thinking.
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Even the description ‘date rape’ pisses me off. It implies, date = potential consent. I’m sure as glad as hell I grew up before rohypnol.
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It is horrendous.
This chilling revelation came about during a discussion on rape on HuffPo way back when, where I was an active commenter on “women’s” issues. There were a bunch of us, old women, trying to get through to various MRA types (I didn’t know then what that was, nor that these thick skulls were indeed MRA), on this and other issues. A young woman, who was a HuffPo editor at the time, told me that she had just realized that she and no fewer than probably a half of her friends had been raped, but they never thought about it as rape.
I was petrified. This is not the world I want for my or anyone’s children.
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Here in Ontario, a pair of 14 year old girls have done something they noticed about a glaring omission in their sex ed curriculum: not one word was taught about consent.
So these two did their project about consent and put together a petition for clear change to sex ed curriculum that emphasizes what consent is, what it looks like, how it has to be not only clear and mutual but enthusiastic.
They then submitted the results of their project to the Premier’s office. The Premier – Wynn – was shocked at the oversight and very pleased to be armed by such a petition from their efforts (here at change.org) and directed her Minister of Education to implement it immediately.
I mention this because the idea of enthusiastic consent seems to be entirely missing in action in these stats and is replaced by some weirdly imposed but socially acceptable idea that subtle tacit permission based on a host of possible situations really translates to mean that an assault is somehow okay or at least excusable… like appearance or time of day or location or setting or whatever… as if any of these implies some measure of consent. It doesn’t.
For example, two teens in Nova Scotia taking turns screwing a girl while the other filmed it actually argued successfully in court that her being busy puking out the second story window couldn’t possibly suggest a lack of consent because bending over the sill revealed her butt that was simply too tempting to these randy teens and so the positioning she took was really a form of tacit consent. Unbelievable yet hardly atypical. Changing the law to switch responsibility from the victim having to argue that consent was not given to the person committing the assault to prove consent was granted enthusiastically would go a very long way to altering the sexual landscape and reducing these atrocious statistics.
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Great petition work on the part of those girls!
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I can’t believe that NS argument. Seriously? Oh yes, I suppose I should believe it. But still, it’s horrific.
As Miep says, good on the teenage girls. It’s interesting that consent wasn’t included back in 1998 and still wasn’t before they raised it. It says a lot about society that sex education doesn’t consider consent. Rather than sex education, it’s probably more prevention of pregnancy and STD education.
In the case of the stats listed and the court cases I quoted, I found them all very worrying. Gang raping a 13-year-old girl? Whatever is her life going to be like?
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When girls are gang raped, odds are they thought the men/boys were their friends.
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Not something – luckily – I’m familiar with. But the objectification seems huge. ‘Here’s my latest toy. I’ll share it with you.’ Because, that’s how women are viewed. Objects, for use and abuse.
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I went out partying with male friends one night when I was fifteen. They locked me up in room and staged a thing where they’d decided one of them, a boy I thought was my friend, was going to publicly rape me. He had a girlfriend.
It didn’t play out, one of them let me out and drove me home. But that was the end of Goofball Island for me.
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Jeez! It’s a sad world when I can say I was lucky with my male friends ie I’m grateful nothing like that happened. And I shouldn’t have to be. I’m glad at least one of your ‘friends’ had some sort of conscience.
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Tildeb,
What a great story about those two girls who tackled the sex ed curriculum- good for them!
I have participated in many discussions at the High School level (particularly in regards to the case you reference) around the issue of consent. Believe me, that high profile case was viewed with great contempt by many (directed toward the males in the case) – but it did serve as a springboard for serious discussion among teenagers. It seems that when alcohol enters the picture, date rape lurks . . . it really is a big problem.
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Carmen, at least there are discussions these days. The nearest my school got to sex ed was amoebae.
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You’d be amazed – as I have been – at the conversations of teenagers. Honestly, all I’ve ever done is facilitate; the students do all the talking. I have had my eyes opened by their frank, honest and intelligent thoughts on these matters.
The other thing I notice is that people my age often have a jaded view of teenagers. As I have mentioned to many people, you’d be surprised at the things that many of them are going through – they are often dealing with problems that many adults haven’t yet experienced; I give a sympathetic ear and tend to ‘mother’ them . .. actually, more like ‘grandmother’ them. 🙂 Every day I’m in the classroom I hear and see things that give me hope for the future — there are many extremely intelligent, caring and astute young people (like the ones Tildeb mentioned) who think deeply about their world; I am consistently encouraged by their interaction. I don’t think I’d want to BE a teenager today, mind you, but there are still many who inspire me.
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While I’m not a fan of sicky, pooey babies and toddlers, I’ve usually had time for teenagers. Mainly because they are in that in-between stage. No longer ‘cute’, not yet adult, trying to find their way and often being dismissed. I have learned loads from younger people on the internet, and, tbh, I am in awe of the young people of today. Especially given the mammoth task they face of trying to get an education, career, home etc in today’s grasping society. You know you are getting old when you start to parrot your parents’ comments: ‘I’m glad I’m not young anymore’. Mind you, I do wonder if they could manage a world trip without a mobile phone and Facebook 😉
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It’s a gigantic problem that is an expected byproduct of a deeply paternalistic culture in which society operates… not just in the actual numbers of assaults committed against women that boggles the mind but in the omnipresent defensive mindset of how women must then operate daily. Changing this to an egalitarian society where gender as a standard is indicative of nothing is an even bigger challenge that can only be tackled one step at a time with real world positive effects towards this eventual goal and that must drag people kicking and screaming. For example, simply making it mandatory for federal governmental cabinets to have gender parity should not be viewed as a feminist issue whatsoever but simply an expected makeup that all public offices will represent the communities they serve in all ways.
That it took 2 youngsters and not educational experts to see such an obvious problem and address it head on in an effective way that brings about improved change tells us that this change is a-coming and one either gets on board, gets out of the way, or gets trampled. The younger generation I think has reached or at least is fast approaching this tipping point of intolerance of meekly going along with such paternalistic stupidity and regressive social assumptions about gender, about addressing the importance of mutual consent when it comes to sex, exposing the motivation of those who commit violence against women to have nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power and physical control and dominance that should be treated as the criminal act of assault against anyone such behaviour is, and to reveal the confusion in law that such acts have been allowed to operate under. and why such legal confusion and obfuscation will require principled courage to be rectified.
Teaching children about consent when it comes to sex is essential for this process to evolve that differentiates responsible sexual behaviour from the criminal and consent has everything to do with defining the creation of a victim versus the engagement of a partner. And that determination defines what a rape means, when it occurs, and who is the guilty party.
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Zapatero (Spanish PM) made a big step with his 50:50 cabinest and deputy PM. And … he didn’t last.
I had a female chair who said as she was a woman, we didn’t need any other women on the board did we? Yet, it was agreed we needed the de facto Asian on the board. People have screwed up ideas.
I hope the younger generation is changing. The older one is certainly shit!
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Trudeau was asked why he wanted gender parity in his cabinet. After a a moment of not saying what I suspect he was dying to say, namely, “What a stupid question!”, his answer utterly skewered the the questioner and started a bit of a twitter frenzy:
“Because it’s 2015.”
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Zapatero (spain) did it back in 2004. It was considered very radical back then. He also did what he promised pre-election: pull Spanish troops out of Iraq. He didn’t get back in 😦
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Reblogged this on There Are So Many Things Wrong With This and commented:
They just wear you down, they wear you down. “No” doesn’t mean “try harder.”
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Thanks Miep.
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❤️
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I think it is crazy.
So the people who believe the women are in some way responsible are not about to.do anything to ensure women are safe?
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Locking up the men seems about the only option to me.
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Yeah, that’s the subject people are kind of forbidden to talk about. If men can’t restrain themselves from behaving violently towards women, why should women have to work to accommodate this?
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It’s the reverse argument. Women shouldn’t walk alone/at night/in short skirts blah blah because it’s unfair on the men. But women walking as above don’t cause a problem, ergo, problem solved, curfew the men 🙂 and yes, all of them.
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You won’t get any argument from me there.
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While it was slightly tongue-in-cheek, and anticipating the ‘but I’m a nice man’ lobby, it is no more illogical then suggesting women stay at home. Why not get rid of the root cause?
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Exactly. Either men need to learn how to respect women’s boundaries, or we have every right to demand they be controlled involuntarily. The arguments that men need women, need sex, that this must be accommodated, can easily be countered by saying “Well, then, clearly we need there to be far fewer men.”
What purpose does it serve to allow men to have a class of women to sexually abuse at will? What purpose do these men serve, outside of their abuse of women, that women could not serve equally well?
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The issue is that men, and society need to think differently. Until that happens, we’ll see little change.
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I do agree with you on that
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I wonder what the world would be like if men stayed at home and did the dishes, cooking and cleaning (not that I do much of 1 and 3 there)?
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There is a song by a reggae artiste called woman ruler by Lord laro, he thinks of such a scenario. He takes poetic liberties generally. Maybe men would be complaining for rights and what nots
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Maybe. I think they would ensure they got their rights far quicker than it is taking women to get them.
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I doubt it.
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Well, women sure as hell aren’t making much progress.
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The progress, if any is too slow.
I read in the news that a court failed to detain a man who stabbed his pregnant wife. I mean that man is in my view a danger to himself and society. He should be locked up as an opportunity to reflect on what he did. It is sad my friend, really sad
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I think the isdue is that we are so used to these stories that we are no longer shocked. Years ago, British police didn’t intervene in domestic violence as it was regarded as just marital spats and nothing to do with the law …
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The sad part in this case the woman didn’t even want to press charges. It is her neighbours who insisted she press charges
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It’s not surprising. There are countless similar stories of women accepting DV.
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Hence the reason here in Ontario, and later the rest of Canada, for the ‘no drop’ policing policy for domestic abuse calls. Again, in Ontario the rates of recidivism dropped dramatically but has achieved mixed results elsewhere. The no drop policy means that the Crown will lay charges and not rely on the victims to do so. The rate of charging abusers increased from 3% before the policy change to about 90% after and was later adopted across the country.
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Thanks for that link tildeb, it’s an interesting read that raises a lot of issues. In no particular order:
1) lack of empowerment
2) the abuser still blaming the victim even when they haven’t pressed the charges
3) victims continuing to not want to testify
No easy answers, but overall, do you think it’s made an improvement? In prosecutions probably? But in behaviour? …
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I have often wondered about the aspect of changing the perpetrator’s behaviour. It seems to me that the thing that’s more likely to have happened is that women are even more reluctant to seek help from the police; they know that once the call goes out, they won’t be able to change their minds. One would HOPE that this law has meant more convictions, but we still read about partners who ignore restraining orders, even, and end up killing women. Bottom line, it seems to me, is that there are still far too many men in society who, at base, do not respect women.
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The issue to me is that women are treated as a sub-species 😦
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I was called for jury duty in one – if not the first – of the first prosecuted cases under this no drop policy. The police laid the charges and the Crown produced very basic evidence that an assault had clearly taken place. No one disputed the physical harm done. The woman had obvious economic reasons to not want a prosecution to take place that would negatively her live-in boyfriend’s ability to help pay her way and she had two children in her care.
The straw poll at the beginning of deliberations was 11-1 in favour of acquittal… mostly for this reason – ‘better’ for her – and then excused under the idea of ‘reasonable’ doubt of his motivation (the typical he said, she said). Because I was the one dissenting vote, I knew exactly where the rest of the jury – 8 women, 4 men – stood. So we talked it out and, 3 hours later, reached a unanimous guilty verdict.
We set precedence and the conviction rate sky rocketed because real crimes did take place all the time; the difference now was that other factors that would have swayed police from laying charges were taken off the table and the focus was put squarely on those who committed assaults and not on the effects a guilty verdict might have on the woman… an excuse/cause/reason/rationalization under which so many assaults were allowed to continue generation after generation without any effective legal intervention.
Did this policy help reduce rates of domestic violence? Well, consider the ancillary effects on children: because every man now knows that if he physically harms a woman at home and the police are called, he will be charged. Period. The same is true for women who attack and harm men. Every child in that household will see a parent or guardian or boy-/girlfriend escorted from the premises by uniformed police officers after a violent encounter. There is no longer any official tolerance for domestic violence so, when the child goes to school and is told there is no tolerance for violence there but punishment is assured, a consistent world view is developed. Although there may be personal tolerance for different kinds of violence, there is none in some physically harmful versions of the public domain (another reason why I’m so vociferous in my support for public education where public values trump private preferences). Learning to respect the physical autonomy of others or suffer a significant penalty for overstepping that boundary is a necessary beginning to respecting why the consent of a sexual partner is fundamental to defining the act as a sexual behaviour and not a physical assault disguised and tolerated as if it were an act of sex.
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If I had been on the jury the straw poll would have been 10-2.
Jury service, and criminal justice generally, isn’t about emotional feelings. It is about applying the law. Whether or not we agree with it may be a different matter, but, it’s not too difficult to work out. Has a crime been committed or not based on the evidence presented? While I escaped jury service last year, I could fully imagine being the dissenting member. But, well done, for talking it through.
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Can’t listen right now, will check it out later
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Are you following the Garrido case (Malaga/Algeciras)? The man was actually promoted and is a police captain in Algeciras now: http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2016/02/07/actualidad/1454863912_730277.html
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No. I rarely look at Spanish media these days. That’s why I have you 🙂 But when I was a little more au fait with what was going on, I wrote a post about the appalling rate of DV in Andalucía. When I say DV, I mean marital murder, as in, allegedly, the Garrido case. On a separate note, can’t say I’m impressed with the ‘exotic animals’ thing either. Tigers do not belong on fincas in Alhaurin. I know Alhaurin well, we nearly bought a finca there.
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There isn’t a punishment bad enough for these men.C
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Sorry, I hadn’t finished. Children are entitled to a normal childhood and it’s an adult’s responsibility to ensure they get it. Abusing child because it isn’t yours is sickening and even more so if it is. The same applies to men who rape. Maybe the third who believe a woman partly responsible need further education on the matter.Without a direct invitation sex is not acceptable and No means No.
Hugs Kate. xxxx
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I find it worrying that in the 21st century so many people are hanging on to archaic beliefs such as women are responsible for being raped. This is a UK survey, not the US Bible Belt for goodness sake. And, I suppose my question is, does religion influence these deeply flawed views, or are they just a product of our sexist society which views women as objects and marks them out of ten for their sexual potential?
I found the report of this Keighley case nauseating. Perhaps partly because I grew up in the West Riding and know the dynamics and the communities. I’ve walked round parts of towns as a reporter that had become totally islamified.
But 13 years old? Ugh.
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Sorry, I wasn’t clear on one point. Did someone actually say, “I have a gun, so I get to rape whomever I please?”
We have an uncomfortably high number of rapes on this side the Pond too. It seems to be the hardest social ill to tackle because the culture just refuses to change. We can bring people around on the subject of civil rights for African-Americans or homosexuals, but start talking about women’s rights and conservatives are exhausted and bored before you even get started.
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Your last sentence nails it. Black rights, homosexual rights, trans rights – but women? Who cares.
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Your post made me remember a case here in the States many years back (although it still happens, a movie was made of this particular one) about Cheryl Araujo, a “woman of questionable character” who was gang raped in a bar while others watched and cheered the whole thing on. The rapists were then let off on a light sentence. You may have seen it: The Accused with Jodie Foster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI7SG2eYUpU
Going on the premise of people would say a woman is to blame, they can go to hell. I bet those who placed blame on a woman never had a female loved one who had been raped. I don’t care if a woman does have “questionable character” and fucks every guy she dates. When it’s her choice, so be it. But just because she may have a reputation as a slut in no way gives any man the right to rape her. I don’t care if she’s walking down the street naked, that does not imply consent for the insertion of a man’s penis or men/multiple penises for that matter!
This “the woman must be at least partially at fault” mentally thoroughly pisses me off! Believe me, you have the same mentally fucked up people here in the States. Grrr!
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Not that long ago, a standard and often successful criminal defense (in the US) of a adult male child rapist was to claim seduction, as in, “Tis 5-year-old seduced me, yoonor! What was I to do? Can’t you see I’m the victim here?”
This thinking has not gone away, sadly. There was a case last year where a judge sentenced a male teacher who raped a 14 yr. old girl — who subsequently committed suicide — to a month in prison. He reasoned that, essentially, the girl seduced the poor man and he had suffered enough.
The judge was selected for a lifetime achievement award shortly after:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-judge-montana-idUSKBN0NE2RZ20150423
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That is just pathetic. I don’t think that mentality will ever go away.
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It was ok. He later apologised for the lenient sentence. Much good that did the dead teenager. His behaviour isn’t just sexism, it’s somewhere between misogyny and out of his fucking tree.
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I’d vote for out of his fucking tree.
And to think that, say, forty years ago, it wouldn’t even raise an eyebrow. Heck, even today it doesn’t, in too many quarters.
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And that’s the problem. It doesn’t raise an eyebrow in 2015. And yet, as I think you pointed out elsewhere, we hear about all the men who are raped in prison (by other men, which is a minor point of course). We just do not hear enough about women who are assaulted and raped. Why the hell is this not an issue? No one forces a man to rape a woman.
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Yeah. This is because, as one notorious manospherian who has been much in the news in the US and beyond lately, Roosh V, put it:
“Women are mostly lubricated holes to use by men for pleasure.”
It is normal and proper to use women this way. Why, Insanitybytes and other pious Christian women, not to mention men, believe that as well.
Their holy book advocates “the natural use of a woman” for men, lest they (men) are led astray by their sinful urges.
When a woman is raped, she is merely used properly. Her consent is, essentially, irrelevant.
Until we get it — really absorb and accept — that women are full human beings and not objects for men to use, this will be a non-issue. We’ve made some progress, but we still have far to go.
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Well of course. Why else would we exist?
Surely not in our own right?
I have no time for IB and her convoluted writing and tortuous thinking (or vice versa). Biblical crap to a T, prefaced with ‘I used to be a feminist and an atheist’. One wants to turn the tables and say, ‘never a True Feminist™ or a True Atheist™’.
Women in the west have made some progress regarding the law. We have the vote, can own property, apply for jobs. So therefore we have equality? Don’t you realise?
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Don’t forget those ‘enlightened’ types who say they’re all for equality for women, but just ‘please be NICE about it’. . as I’ve told several of them, “Being nice hasn’t worked so we’ll talk about it any damned way we please.”
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My sentiments too. But, don’t upset the men (or the women) 🙂
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Edit:
There should not have been an “a” in that terrible sentence. My brain is melting, I’m afraid.
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Fixed. Even thinking about Roosh is likely to fry any decent person’s brain.
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Ah, so that splains it.
Thanks. 🙂
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Nasty toxic poisonous piece of detritus doesn’t come near it. Hence I don’t write about MRAs. Maybe I should 😦
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I’m always tempted. But then I remind myself that we are dealing with dox-happy sadistic narcissistic psychopaths of very limited intelligence who are blinded by their hateful ideology.
Also, of my past dealings with them.
And that puts a damper on my desire.
Now I realize that when I’m tempted, I can go to Arb’s archives and read his great Red Pen of Justice takedowns of some of their idiocies. That brings some relief.
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It’s always very difficult to decide whether to ignore worthless inhuman people or to denounce them. My only question, is that if people don’t get involved with MRAs, do they even realise they are out there? Pronouncing every woman is a whore/lubricated hole etc? Rather than engage with MRAs, might itbhelp to inform rational members of society of their insidious venom? Don’t know.
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I was going to comment and include this several times since this post went up, but changed my mind each time. But I think it’s important for people to realize how seriously disturbed some of these individuals are; these ‘stars’ of the manosphere attract the dregs of society. I saw this on one of my FB friends’ site –
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/?s=rooshv
You might have already seen this one, but it’s a good one – (a light-hearted analogy, but makes a point)
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I think it is useful to expose them. First, for the society at large to know about those dregs in its midst; second, for women to learn just how much some men hate them, and learn to protect themselves for those types; and third, to teach young and vulnerable men who may toy with an idea of following those dregs’ “philosophy” that this is a road to a lonely and/or miserable life.
But then I too have doubts as to how effective all this may be, and whether we are not just giving the narcissistic psychopaths the publicity they crave and strengthen their delusion that their movement is going mainstream.
As a rule of good human conduct, narcissistic psychopaths and their ideologies ALWAYS have to be opposed by people of good will, otherwise we risk their undue and dangerous spread. This is as true of fascism as it is of misogyny, which, unsurprisingly, often go hand in hand.
Are you familiar with David Futrelle’s site? He does a lot of this dirty work so we don’t have to: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/
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Thanks for the link to DF, no I haven’t seen it before. I totally follow your thinking. I have a similar dilemma. By replying or commenting on something, you maybe giving it more credence and attention than it deserves, and yet, if you don’t people will believe all the crap that it is spouted. Question of judgement when to say something really I suppose. Trying to influence MRAs is like trying to tell a fundagelical there is no Xtian god. I guess I’m looking towards the floating voters.
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Hi lonestar. I did see The Accused. There was quite a fuss made about it at the time. I also happened to like JF and thought she played a good role in that film.
I think we have a problem when we continue to deride women who choose one or multiple partners instead of expecting us all to be virgins, yet vaunt the men who shag around endlessly. That is an engrained cultural problem. And as you say, not relevant when a woman says no. Simple as that.
Some of the UK cases recently though have been horrifying. We’re talking older men, often Muslim, ‘grooming’ teenage girls, plying them with drugs, alcohol and tobacco. Any rape is bad, but this is premeditated, manipulative and sick.
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Whoops, got to remember to go to the bottom of the thread so as to avoid the ‘elongated’ comments. . 🙂
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@Carmen
Nested comments are a pet peeve of mine.. 🙂
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At last. Something to disagree about. Nothing wrong with nested comments. It’s just finding the right theme. Nightmare reading them on a mobile though. But at least nested makes it clear who’s replying to who. And no need to write @ Arb all the time 😛
And, unless you subscribe to blog comments via email, you have to keep revisiting blogs to find out if someone’s replied. Pros and cons.
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@RSitM
Talk to me again when the threads get nestled 6 deep and the
paragraphs
are
one
word
long.
🙂
Also..doesn’t the ‘My comments’ tab keep the threads you happen to be involved with up to date?
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OK. For you. I’ll change it to five. Tomorrow.
Well, the comments tab doesn’t keep anything up to date on yours 🙂 apart from the rare occasion when someone replies directly which is difficult when there is no reply button 🙂
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Carmen, the tea thing is thoughtful, I remember thinking it was clever the first time I saw it, my main reservation being that forcing tea on someone isn’t quite as bad as forcing a penis (or bottle or fist or whatever) on a woman. As I said to Emma, Roosh V is despicable. Given that there is a cached, published, self-confession that he has raped women, why is there no case? And wanting to legalise rape on private property? The man is fucking deluded, or in Emma’s words, psychopathic and narcisstic.
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I like Ed’s ‘human excrement’ descriptor, too.
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