Do come to dinner :)

It’s always interesting when men write about becoming vegetarian/vegan, because it is really a soft soppy girly thing to do.

Real men eat meat not quiche.

At one point I was following a blog by a man who was going vegan for a year, primarily for weight loss. I don’t think he stuck at it. Believe me, what keeps you from eating animals or by-products (dairy/eggs) is ethics.

Partner has often been asked if he is vegetarian because I am. As if I could force him to change his diet because of what I choose. No he isn’t. We made a joint decision and it’s one we have both stuck to. No sneaking out for bacon sandwiches like one so-called vegetarian husband did. They weren’t married for long.

So it is refreshing to see KIA and Ark writing about being vegetarian and putting it out there in public. Especially in the light of the God Squad posts glorifying slaughtering animals for food because God. Well, God says and all that.

However Ark did manage to attract a range of bizarre comments.

He posted a pic of a cow and a calf, with the words:

I wouldn’t eat your baby so why would you want to eat mine?

So first up for arsehole comment of the month, even though there are 28 days left, was Arch with:

‘Cause it tastes great with a baked potato and a salad.

That is such a good excuse for killing something. Why didn’t I think of that?

Col says:

I think people who don’t eat meat on ‘ethical’ grounds are delusional.

and

The cause of being vegan is pursued by many with all the zeal of committed religionists.

Not really. I don’t knock on doors, I don’t campaign for tax relief, or impose my views on others. I don’t blog about it that often.

Why am I delusional because I choose a plant-based diet? I’m not believing in mythical deities, virgin births or stairways to heaven. I merely consider it irresponsible, lacking in compassion, and environmentally unsound to eat fish, flesh and fowl.

But, the best result is:

When it comes to food, one has to be pragmatic. If earth overpopulation reached unsustainable levels, you would be amazed how quickly a solution would come from cannibalism.

Yes, let’s eat each other 🙂 This is an excellent solution, Col. Reduce two major world problems at once. Overpopulation and food shortage. Fantastic. ‘Please, do come round for dinner tonight, darling.’

Jason has a similar take on this one, getting rid of all the unwanted lowlifes but in his case he suggests eating animals from rescue shelters:

I do wonder how cat would taste. Utilizing unwanted pets as food would take care of all the troubles surrounding overcrowded animal shelters and animals having to be put down.

So here we have it. The perfect menu courtesy of Col and Jason. With a baked potato and salad, it may even tempt Arch.

      Cat fumé avec a few cute little mice tails garnis
      Pedigree dog soup, with Alsatian, Rottweiler and boxer, fresh from the local shelter
      Twice marinated breast of human, with a little buttock on the side

Deeeelicious?

When people come out with comments like the above, I despair. There is truly no hope.

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About roughseasinthemed

I write about my life as an English person living in Spain and Gibraltar, on Roughseas, subjects range from politics and current developments in Gib to book reviews, cooking and getting on with life. My views and thoughts on a variety of topics - depending on my mood of the day - can be found over on Clouds. A few pix are over on Everypic - although it is not a photoblog. And of course my dog had his own blog, but most of you knew that anyway. Pippadogblog etc
This entry was posted in animal rights, animals, Atheism, food, humour, Religion, rescue dogs, vegan, vegetarian, vegetarianism. Bookmark the permalink.

175 Responses to Do come to dinner :)

  1. Arkenaten says:

    Some of the comments on my post are quite disturbing. One or two made me angry and sad in equal amounts.
    Even as a meat-eater I would never have stooped to such unfeeling disgusting levels – and the old trope about ‘Hunters are behind conservation, blah blah blah’ is hauled out yet again.
    I know we can all get roped into to some measure of cultural indoctrination from time to time, but for heaven’s sake, at what point is it declared okay to switch off one’s brain?

    I am sure there are a number of readers who are meat eaters that didn’t comment, and I hope that a little gentle nudge here and there might move some to reconsider their eating habits.

    EDITED A LA COLORSTORM
    But only for piffling inaccuracies 😀

    Liked by 1 person

    • Disturbing is one word. Out and out off the wall, weird, whacky comes to my mind.
      There is no good sane reason to petrify the shit out of animals by hunting them. I honestly think it is sick and perverted. I assume your Jason pal would probably want the local rescue shelter to release the animals into a compound so he could see how many he could rack up his scar with before he ate them for lunch.
      So. Hunters saved the rhinos eh?

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Hariod Brawn says:

    “It’s always interesting when men write about becoming vegetarian/vegan, because it is really a soft soppy girly thing to do.”

    I assume you’re referring to the eating habit not the writing? I can’t say I recognise any distinctions in attitudes based on gender, but then I’m a Southern Softie [Brit] and it may have been different up North for you back in the seventies or whenever. That said, then in the sixties I lived in a small and ultra-conservative town in South Buckinghamshire and one of the shops was a psychedelically-oriented ladies ’boutique’ run by a fella. He was considered an odd sort, not because of the business he ran, nor the huge Fly Agaric mushrooms painted upon his shop’s walls, but because he was reputed to be . . . (long pause) a vegan! Not a semi-rational vegetarian, but a wholly-lost-the-plot vegan. This, by virtue of perfect logic, was thought to be contributory to his emaciated appearance, his wholly inappropriate choice of trade, his dubious obsession with Alice in Wonderland, and most likely was causal in regards to his proclivity for wearing star-spangled purple loons. Not eating cows does funny things to you don’t you know?

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  3. violetwisp says:

    When did Ark become a vegetarian? Delightful news. I’m feeling the same discomfort about dairy products as I used to about eating meat. I know it’s not nice, I know I don’t want to put the cows through it, but I’m still carried along on the cultural/practical wave and can filter out the wrongness of it on a daily basis as I slurp hot chocolate and munch on cheese. So I can understand people filtering out the wrongness of killing sentient beings for their tasty delight and the ease of their everyday lives. But it’s still bizarre. When I finally kick dairy products I may have less tolerance.

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    • Dunno. Recentlyish? We’ve had vegan spells a few times. He likes cheese and butter, hates milk. I don’t buy them, he does. I use soya milk for cooking. I lapse and use butter in pastry, and occasionally eat the cheese. Morrisons does a nice veg cheddar. But normally I make him a cheese salad and have mine without. The dairy thing gripes me. I could say there’s limited choice in both Gib and Spain and it’s true. FFS Spain doesn’t even label food as veg*n. Anyways, one of the local shops has finally got some tempeh in so we are having that for lunch 🙂

      Can’t you use cocoa and a non milk drink? KIA had an interesting post about vegan cheese but he’s got a weird policy of monthly deletions so it’s gone. America has soooooo many vegan options. There’s little/no excuse for eating animals in the US, apart from selfishness and hypocrisy. And God.

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    • pinkagendist says:

      Fabulous! If Glaswegians used Corsodyl instead of dairy products- just imagine the savings for the entire UK!

      Like

  4. Believe me, what keeps you from eating animals or by-products (dairy/eggs) is ethics.

    Ethics? Values governing a person’s or group’s behaviour? Hmm, a bold controversial claim Roughseas. 🙂

    I think it’s more complicated than an “A or B” moral judgement by someone. Values among mammals vary based upon available resources in an ecosystem always tied to climate trends and variations, the mammal’s digestive systems, their brain size, and can be as diverse as the some 8.7 million known species on the planet. And as one of your/the Commentor(s) made regarding extreme life-threatening conditions & circumstances, mammals are not above cannibalism in order to raise the chances of “rescue” and survival through insane hardship; e.g. the 1972 Uruguayan rugby team whose plane crashed in the frozen Andes Mtns.

    Starting around 2.6 million years ago our ancestors were using tools to cut, pound, crush, and access new foods that their regional continental ecosystem-biosystem provided, including meat from large animals. Two million years of Natural and Group values are firmly embedded in our DNA. I don’t think a person or a group just flips-a-switch and turn that off or abandon the behaviour overnight, especially when you and/or the Group are looking at severe starvation or extinction.

    And then there is the recent research & theories of phytobiology showing that many plants grow and behave as if they have intelligent human-like characteristics. In 2006 six scientists determined that…

    …sophisticated behaviors observed in plants cannot at present be completely explained by familiar genetic and biochemical mechanisms. Plants are able to sense and optimally respond to so many environmental variables—light, water, gravity, temperature, soil structure, nutrients, toxins, microbes, herbivores, chemical signals from other plants—that there may exist some brainlike information-processing system to integrate the data and coördinate a plant’s behavioral response. The authors pointed out that electrical and chemical signalling systems have been identified in plants which are homologous to those found in the nervous systems of animals. They also noted that neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine, and glutamate have been found in plants, though their role remains unclear.

    Perhaps we should stop eating most plants on ethical grounds. On that note, perhaps we should murder the highly invasive parasitic vine Cuscuta and all plants like it with highly intelligent predatory behaviour! 😉

    Seriously though, proper human diets are not easily or neatly put into a single right or wrong dichotomy. In my humble opinion, Nature, including Human-nature, are just way too sophisticated given 2.6 million years of evolution.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hariod Brawn says:

      Yep prof, see also latest theories on consciousness from Tononi and others i.e. Integrated Information Theory.

      Liked by 1 person

    • You are going good on arguing with me, my dear Professor. However, I am not crashed in the frozen Andes Mountains, and nor are most people. That is a fallacious argument in the extreme. I am surprisingly, talking about the average person in the street who, in your country in particular, has an amazing array of non-animal products and indeed restaurants for those who can afford it, to provide a perfectly healthy diet.

      I am also well aware that humans moved from a plant-based diet to eating animals, although I always welcome your educational lectures. So what, is to stop them from reverting to plants? It’s not firmly embedded in our DNA at all. That is, to quote Hariod above, serious bollocks. I am going to stop smoking/drinking/fucking/eating animals tomorrow. What is the difference? If you want to do something enough, you will do it? Or would you disagree?

      Nor is anyone talking about starvation or extinction. Well only of animals and a few pobres in Africa that the western world cares little about while they eat their nice big steaks/burgers.

      Yes I know, both you and John are telling me carrots scream. But the point is you both eat meat yet you are pointing out that plants are sentient? Hardly as though it’s going to stop either of you changing your eating habits is it? Trying to make me feel guilty? Don’t. You’ll have to try much harder.

      Methinks it’s time you dropped the primitive nurture over nature argument and at least credit some of us with a little intelligence. Even if it doesn’t compute with your world view.

      Liked by 3 people

      • I hope we know enough about each other’s personalities to discuss, challenge, and broaden each other’s perspectives; at least that is my hope that we share. Besides, not all friction, resistance, or the greater benefits of “positive and negative” muscle training are bad, right? 🙂

        I hear (and most definitely feel your EMOTION behind) your words. With all due respect I simply wanted to offer my additional panoramic lens to the subject because I felt the post was a bit too… microscopic? Whether my comment might be completely accurate, partially so, or as you state “serious bullocks,” isn’t as significant as what you also said… “If you want to do something enough, you will do it?” but why one does it is a more intriguing discussion! At least for me it is. 😉

        I hope my alternative viewpoints don’t warrant being banned from your blog(s) or past “the date of expiration” as you’ve mentioned a few times to me. LOL ❤

        Liked by 1 person

        • For goodness sake. Why am I going to ban you for disagreeing? I’m not yet that fascist (just working on it 😉 )

          The post was merely to highlight what, to me, were completely arsey comments. Your choice to agree with them, if you want. And, mindful of your recent comment I was looking at the word count. Of course I can write thousands on this topic should you so choose to read but I doubt it. Animal eaters tend to switch off when they have made their point.

          Or eaten their tea/breakfast/lunch/whatever.

          Liked by 1 person

          • I don’t agree with the “arsey” flippant comments and I truly hope I’m never faced with harsh insane life circumstances where I’m FORCED to chose between my life and another sentient being — because I’m not afraid of death (only a painfully drawn-out death)… I don’t like my own chances of survival in a possible catastrophic famine. LOL

            To date, however, I have yet to hear, read, or listen to convincing arguements either way. But as is ALWAYS the case, that can change given our infinitely changing existence in this Cosmos. 😀

            Liked by 1 person

          • I wouldn’t like to be in that position either. But surely you can see the hypocrisy? You don’t personally kill something, someone else does, you just eat it. What arguments are you looking for? Empathy, compassion, environmentalism, better use of resources to feed starving people? Less crap food manufactured by multinationals? Which part of you did not wake up thinking today?

            Like

          • But surely you can see the hypocrisy?

            LOL…yes I do see the ambiguity. I’ve learned (most of my adult life now) that there are usually several things in my lifestyle and choices that to another “group” seem highly ambiguious. Additionally, I’ve learned (sometimes embarrassingly) how hypocritical Americans are in a variety of areas…and by default, I’m American. Until 10-years ago I had never heard of Vegans. Because again, by default, I was surrounded by thousands upon thousands of Omnivores of all ages and types, and a miniscule amount of Vegetarians here and there. Over these last 10-15 years, my diet has decreasingly declined in all meats with the exception of certain poultry and seafood — much of what comes from the sea is very healthy for humans! Are there ambiguities in my current diet and lifestyle? Absolutely! I’ll never claim to be omniscent on all subjects, except those I know about firsthand. 😀 (j/k) 😉

            Nevertheless, as you’ve spoken about a plethora of times Roughseas, in very energized animated ex-Pat British vernacular, much of what I represent (as an American male) appauls you, even infuriates you — which explains why you will NEVER be caught dead on this continent! We represent everything crude & uncivilized here. LOL 😉

            What arguments are you looking for? Empathy, compassion, environmentalism, better use of resources to feed starving people? Less crap food manufactured by multinationals?

            1) None. But I do prefer good challenging dialogue! 2) No. 3) Probably. I need to now quickly learn how to be my own gardener & farmer, raising my own fresh produce! 🙂

            Which part of you did not wake up thinking today?

            LMAO! 😛 Oh, I do enjoy your unfiltered candor. My ex-g/f and I had a daily and weekly game/quota of “stupid questions”. When we were finished laughing about the other’s question, we’d state “Alright. That was your ONE stupid question for the day!” Or week if there were lots of brain-dead moments!

            And I think I’ll leave it at that. 😉 ❤

            Liked by 1 person

          • I said hypocrisy sweetness, not ambiguity. Don’t play the word game with me, it’s not advisable.

            You spent 42 years of life without being aware of vegans? I am utterly stunned. Just totally fucking gobsmacked. JFC.

            Much of what comes from the sea is not very healthy for humans. I saw a fantastic infographic a while back pointing out which fish were dangerously full of nasty toxic baddies. More seafood was bad than good. If I ever find it again I’ll send you the link. Take care with your fish darling. Assuming you can salve their last gasps for air with your squeaky clean conscience. I’m sure you can.

            Actually, your continent has more vegan food choices and restaurants than you can poke a stick at. Just most of you choose to ignore them. But yes, it’s not sufficient incentive to visit. Let’s add in death penalty, religion and republicans, and like, seriously why would I even consider it? (I don’t).

            No? To:

            Empathy, compassion, environmentalism, better use of resources to feed starving people?

            Really Professor? Really? As a freethinking humanist?

            But natch, looking after Número uno comes first huh! Exactly why I so love Americans. Especially Texans. Where everything is bigger and better.

            You know you are the second American who has bailed out on me today. I must improve my little girl sugary conversational technique and let those clever men know best.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Along with “not waking up” today, did I also not-wake with a target fixated on my forehead or ass/arse? LOL

            You know you are the second American who has bailed out on me today.

            Huh? What do you mean? Bail out as in leave, ignore, too retarded to understand? 😛 Explain…

            P.S. Do you know my lengthy patience with you is as equal & resilient as yours might be with me? 🙂 ❤

            Liked by 1 person

          • Possibly all of those. ‘I think I’ll leave it at that’ sounded like a bail out.

            The other one said this conversation is ended (or similar). Er no, it wasn’t. I hadn’t finished !!

            I have no idea about that. To be determined …

            Like

          • It wasn’t a bail-out. It was a proactive, patience-barometer regarding derisive remarks; i.e. the “needle” inched closer to the red-zone…however close that might be. LOL 🙂

            Not sure about the ‘other’ you’re referring to. Nonetheless, I’d hope you would want to read my thoughts, POV, etc, respectable of course & possibly opposing… rather than being passive or overly compliant in order to “sugar coat” (to borrow your phrase), which neither of us like.

            Back to the original point, I don’t think being Vegan is merely “an ethical” choice — I believe it’s more complex and gave quick reasons why. That’s it. I’ve been know to be wrong and I’ve been know to be right. Clearly I cannot please everyone can I? LOL How feasible is that? 😛

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          • Your patience barometer encountering the red zone is in my words a bail out 🙂

            Don’t worry about the ‘other’. He’s religious. Nuff said. No comparison between you 😉

            Of course I just wait expectantly for your knowledgable comments. Naturally, I am agog to learn about veganism and ethical choices from someone who has been aware of it for less than 20% of his life. I am sure I will learn a lot. It’s rather pioneering in a way isn’t it? Yee har. Let’s just ride at them, into them and over them.

            I think it’s reasonable to view my comments about vegan diets from the perspective of a western world woman living in Europe, and who does have experience of the basic diet in my campo village in Spain where meat and fish are a luxury. And who has been veg for around twenty five years. That you hadn’t heard of vegans until ten years ago doesn’t exactly suggest you have years of empirical research on the subject.

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          • That you hadn’t heard of vegans until ten years ago doesn’t exactly suggest you have years of empirical research on the subject.

            Point taken. I don’t have empirical evidence on birthing children either. The closest thing I have is being a Father. Does that disqualify me totally on children or parenting? 🙂

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          • No. But it does me. Hence I don’t talk about childbirth or parenting. Because you know, I don’t talk about things I don’t know about (except for Americans of course, they are fair game) or that I’m not interested in. Cuts down one’s fields of research remarkably. You should try it.

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          • LOL…Hmm. “I’ll leave it at that, again.” 😉

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          • I take it you accept defeat a) on your spurious comparisons and b) on lack of knowledge. It’s ok, I’m gracious in victory :)💋

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          • LOL…HAH! That’s one way YOU can look at it, sure. 😉

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          • And you don’t? Anyway, it’s late and I’m tired 💤 Not that I wish to cut off your stimulating discussion of course, unlike the two occasions you have done so 🙂

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          • Sometimes curing a headache by decapitation isn’t the best solution or reconciling — it’s wise to let things settle a bit. 🙂

            And I KNOW you truly love my stimulations; time isn’t always conducive to our locations or schedules, as you know.

            Sleep well my Friend. ❤

            Like

          • Depends whose head it is …

            I’m surprised you are even around the internet given your schedule and commitments. And, I always sleep well. Scary dreams sometimes but I still sleep. Just a shame the brain doesn’t. No doubt you will write an educational post about that 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • LOL…are you asking that I be a Guest blogger on one of your acclaimed blogs!!! 😮 ❤

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          • No. Merely that I thought you could it include it within your brainy series. For those who understand such clever stuff, that is.

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          • Understand such clever stuff…” HAH! You flatter me. Yeah, all my 4-5 followers? 😛

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          • I think you underestimate yourself. Surely 6 or 7?

            Liked by 1 person

          • LMAO!!! That was good. 😉

            P.S. I’ve had many occassions to eat humble pie too. Does that shock you? Surely not. 😀

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          • I’m just waiting for the occasion with me.

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          • In all your six decades, not even a sniff!? 😉

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          • Forgot to comment/mention this too…

            But natch, looking after Número uno comes first huh! Exactly why I so love Americans. Especially Texans. Where everything is bigger and better.

            Which is why I’m SO willing to make fun of Texas, Texans (self included) and our social-political culture every chance I get — e.g. my post “No Dickie On Big Tex-ie”! Remember?

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          • You can have one point about your ability to poke fun at Texans. But that’s all. You didn’t answer why you had no interest in the other points I raised? You know, empathy, compassion, starving millions in preference to cheap tortured slaughtered chicken on your plate?

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          • LOL…thank you Darling. ❤

            Regarding your "no interest" question, your "sour coating" — as opposed to sugar 😉 — takes some serious effort to…stay on task while navigating along the sandpaper & sharp sheared glass. 😈

            It's not enough that I'm ALREADY disliked, ridiculed, and labelled traitor in my native state for being very unconventional, a Devil's minion, and dancing to my own drum… is it? For you that counts toward nothing, huh? I have to be fully European, or Vegan, or whatever to be treated as human? LOL 😉

            Nonetheless, if you’d like to carry this over to private emails, I’m happy to do that…if you can be patient. 😉

            Liked by 1 person

          • Why do I get the feeling that this ‘coming to terms’ is way out of balance or that only one position will be tolerated? LOL

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          • You can’t possibly term me intolerant when I tolerate you 🙂 Nothing to do with anything but it’s pissing it down here and the washing is hung out :(☔️

            Liked by 1 person

          • Wooohooo! Let it all hangout! 😈

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          • Here’s a nice long boring vid for you 🙂
            (Revenge)

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          • Already seen it and wrote about it. 😉

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          • Of course. However, the words were appropriate, no?

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          • Damn! You caught me. I hate Eric Clapton. Never listen to him or that video…ever. I just thought my response was funny enough for you to leave it alone. 😛

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          • I don’t have an American sense of humour.

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          • Actually, do Americans have a sense of humour? 🙂

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          • When I’ve had the time to catch the Graham Norton Show or QI (with Stephen Fry & Alan Davies), they’ve frequently had American comedians. But you’ll probably tell me those two award-winning BBC shows don’t represent Britain/England in the least. 😉

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          • Darling I haven’t watched British television for nearly 15 years. I have no clue as to the so-called comedy output. I can tell you about a funny Spanish programme I used to watch but that’s probably of no value. I used to watch Goodness Gracious Me. Steptoe was funny too. Actually I don’t really like comedy. Too contrived.

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          • Actually I don’t really like comedy. Too contrived.

            Hmm, that probably explains much about why my question of “merely ethics” here has been such an… “annoyance.” LOL 😉

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          • Why? Was it an attempt at American humour?

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          • I’m sorry for some reason, the rest of your comment after the first line didn’t appear. But no, you don’t have to be anything, other than who you are. And no to emails. I have too much on right now.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Hariod Brawn says:

            Kate said: “Actually, do Americans have a sense of humour?”

            I know it’s an unforgiveable transgression commenting with a video, but . . .

            Liked by 1 person

          • I’m beginning to think everyone is deliberately posting podcasts, videos etc just to annoy me. I got halfway through. Was it supposed to be funny? The canned laughter suggested that could have been an option.

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          • Hariod Brawn says:

            Perhaps humour was never Bill Hicks’ strong point? Just curious Kate, but what sort of things do you find funny, if anything?

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          • Good question. Monty Python? Parodies, caricatures, Oscar Wilde, dry humour to the point of arid, clever sarcasm (rather than insulting sarcasm, although I have been known to laugh at that), spontaneous humour, and sometimes really really corny jokes.

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          • Hariod Brawn says:

            I’m laughing at your clever sarcasm which insults my insulting sarcasm. o_O

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          • Oh, it’s so nice to make people laugh 🙂 I can’t tell jokes to save my life so I never set out to be funny. It’s always a pleasant surprise when someone says they find something I write funny. Unless, they are being sarcastic and I haven’t noticed. Hmm.

            Liked by 1 person

        • pinkagendist says:

          But a little bit dishonest, no? We can dance around it, pretend it’s not so, but the fact-fact is that by eating meat some of us may be breaking with our principles. I myself have a myriad of justifications, but I’m fully aware they’re justifications. The day we start believing our own justifications is the day we should start getting worried about the quality of our thought process.

          Liked by 2 people

          • I think I first thought about it as a young girl. I remember the moment. I was lying on the bed reading a World Wildlife magazine (it was called world wildlife back then). I looked at the animals in the magazines, which I didn’t eat, and through my subscription I hoped I was helping to conserve, and thought about the animals I did eat. And I felt slightly uneasy. There was something wrong with the logic (or lack of). I puzzled about it for some time, and the only way I could rationalise it in my young mind, was to distinguish between animals for food and animals not for food and avoid the fact that the food animals were being killed to end up on my plate and that I didn’t agree with killing animals. And I liked eating meat. So it was ok, sort of. For the next 15(?) years at any rate. Apart from anything else I didn’t even know about vegetarianism at that age.

            It’s very odd that vegetarianism can still generate conversations from both sides. I don’t have the zeal of the new convert, if I ever did. I’ve heard all the questions and all the arguments over the years and it’s water off a duck’s back. The two attitudes that leave me mildly amused still, are 1) the immediate defensiveness of some animal eaters, the ‘oh we don’t eat much meat, hardly ever really, we eat lots of pasta’ brigade, and 2) the sheer hypocrisy and excuses justifications.

            But while ever restaurants continue to offer meals with Parmesan cheese (and Gorgonzola) as vegetarian offerings, and no vegan meals at all, I feel I should make the token educational gesture on here from time to time. This obviously didn’t fall into that category 😀

            Liked by 2 people

          • …breaking with our principles.

            I like that wording Pinkagendaist! “Our” principles, indeed.

            And if you’re up to it, I’d be curious to know WHERE those principles come from. Are we born with all virtuous principles — even about what to eat like Judaism teaches/practices — separate & independent of our parents and our parents “groups”? And what if the “group” includes most all of a population? I’m also curious to know much more precisely what defines intelligent feeling consciousness through ALL organisms. To perhaps put myself further “into the frying pan” (which I often do 😛 ), many many people believe that life (human life) begins milli-seconds after conception and aborting a “fetus” any time after conception is murder… or in this case here, killing a living being. Additionally, many people believe that an elderly person kept on full life-support is essentially ‘not alive’ with no quality of life and it’s justifiable to “unplug” them, i.e. make them dead.

            Liked by 1 person

          • I post a few crass comments in response to Ark’s vegetarian post and you want to turn it into a debate on morality, consciousness, abortion and euthanasia. Couldn’t you find anything important or controversial to throw into the mix?

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          • LOL…so so easily annoyed. 😈

            Darling, you can simply ignore me if you’d like. 😉

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          • Sweetheart … so so fast to misread my emotions 🙂

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          • Hmm, yes perhaps. The limitations of language — which I’m still mastering, or trying to — typed in haste sometimes are not accurately conveyed, especially between different cultures. Sorry if I’ve misread. A good reason to be patiently persistent even with those who might be innocently ignorant, eh? 🙂

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          • And would you be speaking for yourself or advising me? But yes, agreed, very difficult to read emotions over the Internet. I don’t get seriously annoyed very often 😉

            Liked by 1 person

          • Well, I feel that I’ve taken up way too much of your comment section here, I’ve raised other related topics hoping for a broadened enlightening dialogue, and offered extended discussion (& clarification) via personal email. Yet, we both have ‘cluttered’ schedules & priorities which unfortunately makes deeper understanding more difficult, doesn’t it? LOL

            Oh, what to do. ❤

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          • Do stop being such a flippin’ martyr! 😀

            Like

          • But wait…aren’t “martyrs” self-sacrificing, putting other life ahead of their own…widely known as…as… (say it isn’t so!)…a higher virtue!? 😮

            Besides, to become a martyr, wouldn’t someone or something need to kill me? 🙂

            Fyi, I must start & continue my busy day & schedule, then at some point finish up my next blog-post, so Darling…
            …I bid you adieu. ❤

            Like

          • It’s all relative as to one’s view of martyrdom. Thank you for informing me of your timetable, I appreciate that. Naturally, I would otherwise have been gazing at the screen waiting for your next pearls. Huge pearls, of course, because they come from Texas 🙂 Another brainy blog post. ‘Twill give me something to anticipate with much delight.
            Adieu? You sound like something out of the Sound of Music! 🎶

            Liked by 1 person

          • pinkagendist says:

            Good try- but you err by even referring to conception as you have. Conception is a process that takes a good many days. Certainly not simultaneous to the sexual act as some imply.

            We judge based on the human experience; which is really the best we can do. We can (and do) arbitrarily decide that we should eat cows and not horses or dogs. What we can’t do, however, is deny those are (all) animals that have a high degree of ‘sentience’. We could measure that scientifically based on activity in the cerebral cortex. Activity which is not present in the brain-dead or in sperm or zygotes 😉

            Liked by 2 people

          • Oh, I like the idea of a Professor and Pink intellectual discussion. Such fun. You might even want to wade into sexual arenas 🙂

            Anyway, I personally, agree with your points cos I’m just a little sycophant or whatever Vi once said. However, you did miss out on the screaming veg debate which seems to be such a hot topic these days.

            There is some flawed logic going on. Because some people (me in this case) choose not to eat animals, we are also being questioned about our choice to eat plants. By people who eat animals? I swear the world is truly crazy.

            Conception is best avoided. Leads to more crazy people. I’ve done my bit there 🙂

            Like

          • pinkagendist says:

            As you know, I like a good debate with people who think 🙂 Professor is clever, so I’m sure something good will come of it.
            I didn’t miss the vegetable scream debate, more so, I ignored it. My reference to sperm and zygotes however was in reference to that. Sperm is not a baby, a zygote is not a baby, a carrot is not a baby- and a fetus only develops the anterior cingulate at the 26th week of gestation. The comparison of spinach pain to animal pain is very much in line with comparing male masturbation (or menstruation or abortion) to murder…

            Like

          • Good try- but you err by even referring to conception as you have. Conception is a process that takes a good many days. Certainly not simultaneous to the sexual act as some imply.

            Yes, you are correct Sir…and I knew that as well. I was attempting to speak from the POV of those anti-abortion proponents, i.e. THEIR language & constructs. Sorry for my confusion there. 🙂

            We could measure that scientifically based on activity in the cerebral cortex. Activity which is not present in the brain-dead or in sperm or zygotes 😉

            Does that science include phytobiology? Not a wise-ass question, but a genuine one. 🙂
            I’m in the process of learning more about these subjects and another question I’ve created in the process is… With animals that do indeed have the “…activity in the cerebral cortex” as you mention, what are the “ethics” involved with animal predators eating animal prey? And how ‘detached‘ are Homo sapiens from the rest of mammalian (or other species) behaviour & their diets? Our brain complexity based on the history of how humans treat other humans? 😮

            I’m sincerely curious about these things, and I’m just not yet sure it’s “purely and simply an ethical question/choice.”

            Liked by 1 person

          • pinkagendist says:

            We’re not detached at all, but I have the impression we want to go in that direction. Don’t we? To go beyond the firstborn baby black eagle who pecks at its sibling until the sibling dies?

            Liked by 1 person

          • We’re not detached at all, but I have the impression we want to go in that direction. Don’t we?

            Agreed, I don’t think we can ever be totally detached; Earth and all its resources (animals included) sustain us…completely! I’m in the middle of some books and recently a DVD by Naturalist E. O. Wilson, and I’m leaning heavily to being more of a biophilia-ist(sp?) primarily because of my fellow countrymen’s emboldened ideology of “God-given Dominion over Earth and all things on Earth” especially non-Xians. 😮 Honestly, it’s scary shit to hear how dead serious they are with it! :/

            Nevertheless, if I must change my diet (more) in order to fall in line with my position/passion about climate change, destruction of ecosystems, etc, I will. But I want to make sure my reasons are sound and that I can reasonably defend them.

            Sorry, not sure I follow the baby black eagle reference. Think I have a vague idea, but not totally sure.

            Like

          • In terms of your learning experiences, try compatriots instead of fellow countrymen, it’s rather more inclusive of the whole population and not just 50% of it. Of course, if you’re only thinking of men as they’re the ones with ‘God-given dominion’ then I suppose it is in fact a devastatingly accurate description.

            Like

          • You are correct Roughseas, “compatriots” would’ve been more inclusive. Thought of that word-usage as I typed it; thought “citizens” might of been more useful too or compatriots, or Americans, or the 20-30 other possible synonyms. Microscopic dissections do have their purpose I suppose. 😉 Speaking of which, women make-up only 50% of the population??? I would’ve thought it was much higher… 65%, 68.7%, maybe over 69.539% (?)… seeing that over the last 2-3 millenia males wipeout each other in wars, etc. 😛

            Like

          • They do for oppressed minorities seeking to change the balance of power 🙂

            More boys are born than girls, interestingly. Anyway, you can google as well as I so just try population of women in the world. Save me repeating it all here.

            Liked by 1 person

          • pinkagendist says:

            The baby black eagle point was in reference to “natural” cycles. Our animal nature leads us to do many things, including some that aren’t that great.
            There’s a wonderful book by Scott Forbes (A Natural History of Families) that’s a real life-lesson in how animalistic we really are. We’ve just managed to romanticize the human animal and we deceive ourselves by believing all our behaviours are inspired by thought/personality rather than primitive instincts.

            Liked by 1 person

          • There’s a wonderful book by Scott Forbes (A Natural History of Families) that’s a real life-lesson in how animalistic we really are. We’ve just managed to romanticize the human animal and we deceive ourselves by believing all our behaviours are inspired by thought/personality rather than primitive instincts.

            Well Mr. Forbes’ (and yours?) take on human behaviour certainly resonates with me and MY experience! I’d imagine Mr. Forbes could also attribute WHY graphic horror, zombie, and vampire-werewolf films and video-games are so popular among audiences & consumers year after year. And full and fair disclosure here, without going into the “why”… but I have enjoyed playing war games, primarily strategy games like Total War: Rome, but also Medal of Honor. I know full well that I have a few dark-sides, perhaps more than I realize!

            I will checkout that book. Thanks. 🙂

            Like

          • pinkagendist says:

            Yes, I do share that view 🙂
            Here’s a sample (1st) chapter: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8001.html

            Liked by 1 person

          • Wow! Read up through “The Family Myth”, 1st paragraph and I feel Forbes is pretty spot-on. We are never too far detached from our Natural WILDside. Period.

            Thank you Pinkagendist for that link, and the book recommendation! 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • And below Pinkagendist, regarding “being clever“… wasn’t aware that my questions, points, thinking was all that clever. LOL Was really examining and questioning whether eating mammals, reptiles, insects, paraphyletic groups (fish), amphibians, etc, was a simple A or B ethical choice. Not sure that my questions or approach are clever as they are just “think before you leap” or follow the mob. 😉

            Like

          • pinkagendist says:

            I eat meat, so I’m not sure I’m the ideal person to answer your question. I even eat foie-gras to my partner’s great dismay. I suppose my point is I know my satisfaction comes at a price.
            I can extend that argument to many aspects of life. If I own 15 properties and rent them out, I’m at an advantage in the grand scheme of the world. I wouldn’t categorize it as unethical- but of course, it suits me to rationalize that the world has a certain order 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Good answer Pinkagendist. Thank you. 🙂

            Like

          • Fois gras 😦 I suppose you eat veal too? Although in a way I find it all very academic. Is the ‘I don’t mind animals being killed for my food because I only eat happy pigs that have been humanely reared’ argument that much better than ‘I really don’t care about their lives, they just taste nice’ stance? One could say yes it is, or at least, to go back to your original premise, one can justify the decision to oneself.

            The bottom line however is that animals are being killed to provide food for humans, the meat and livestock industry makes big bucks out of it, the environment is being and has been devastated to turn it over to pasture, and we still have starving millions while the western world shovels in as much meat, fish, and poultry as it can.

            Like

          • pinkagendist says:

            No veal, but we’re in foie-gras territory here. It’s the regional specialty. In fact every sunday from the 15th of this month to march Mazamet has its Marche au Gras. Mike doesn’t mind giving hosts explanations of what he eats and doesn’t eat and why, but I find it too tiresome so I just eat whatever I’m given.
            From a behavioural perspective, I’m still in development. I’ve just made the jump to only local/non-industrial food (which is a first step.)
            Ethically, I agree with you- but I just don’t know that I can personally achieve that standard of ethics.

            Like

          • Well, you can hardly say following me would be following the mob as I’m usually in a minority group on just about everything 😉

            I know you don’t like simplicity, but I’m not sure this one needs to be that complex. There are cultural issues, so some people eat pig, sheep, cow, chicken, fish, but not Joey the budgie, Goldie the fish, Fido the dog, Ms Kitty, or Dobbin the mule or Silver. In essence, there are no physical/biological differences between those two groups of animals.

            But, to use Pink’s word again, we choose to justify eating the first group, and abhor people who eat the second group on the grounds that it’s uncivilised. It’s like the huge furore in the UK when it was discovered horsemeat was used in burgers. That’s when, looked at rationally, the debate becomes almost farcical as people go into orbit because they’ve unknowingly eaten one animal instead of another.

            If one has a choice about what to eat, ie has the money to purchase a range of foods, rather than being desperate, poor, and willing to eat whatever is available, other than matters of taste (some people don’t like meat/fish/seafood/mushrooms/Brussels sprouts) what else do you think is governing a decision if not one of ethics?

            As you like talking heads, you may want to listen to the podcast Disperser linked to. I think I clicked on about one hour twenty to get the relevant section. Disperse says it’s all pretty good, but you know my patience levels … however, they do get into the whole morality issue so that should entertain you, seems like the sort of philosophical discussion you enjoy rather than the simple perspective I provide 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

      • Hariod Brawn says:

        Who is this ‘John’ who thinks carrots scream Kate?

        Like

  5. Wendy Kate says:

    When I met my man he had been thinking about giving up meat for a while, so when we moved in together and i started mumbling about needing a separate fridge for the meat he said he would try it for a while and 20 odd years later, including a year apart, when everybody urged him to go back to eating meat and he didn’t, he is still vegetarian. Also, I have found people who go vegan to lose weight never stick with it, you are right it has to be an ethical choice. I have been vegan for 27 years now and confess to being slightly smug about being the same size 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    • Damn. Half the commenters on on here have beaten me by years! I tells you, I couldn’t live with a meat eater. Or a smoker.
      My weight was fine over, well forever, until I broke the ankle. I’ve never had to lose weight before, I’m not even remotely ‘fat’. I just want to lose what I didn’t want 😀 total lack of activity. I’ve spent 50+ years being skinny, and curves ain’t my thing.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Those comments you mention appear to be of the standard Facebook anti-vegetarian variety. For whatever reason, people think it’s funny to go to extremes to snipe at people who think about what they eat. My own personal view has been that if you won’t buy a food item because of a reason other than taste, then there’s no justification for deriding someone’s decision to obtain and eat food based on ethical grounds.

    They’re being ignorant to just get a rise out of you. Sadly, if they actually do not care as much about what they eat as they imply, they won’t be at it for very long.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Isn’t it the same old story? Snipe at people who don’t obey cultural norms? Minority groups? Superiority complex?

      I have always been honest, I enjoyed eating meat, fish, shellfish etc, probably because my parents could afford good quality food. But once that decision has been taken in your head, that attraction/desire for the taste/texture just evaporates. It becomes meaningless.

      I think part of the issue is that most people who eat animals can’t actually be honest enough to say, I don’t care if something has been killed for me to eat my breakfast/lunch/tea/supper. Because that’s the bottom line.

      Liked by 1 person

  7. Sonel says:

    There’s nothing soft, soppy or girly about any man doing what he believes in … if it’s for the right reason and a good one at that. There are so many men out there that believe they are ‘real men’. Those men abuse women and children. Men who were raised with those beliefs and told that it’s the way ‘real men’ behave.

    This is a very controversial subject. As humans we are very good at justifying our actions. We ignore the facts, shun any opposing criticism and hold dearly onto our beliefs, attitudes and choices. Being a vegetarian is your choice. Eating meat or not eating it, is also a choice. Your choice is your own and it shouldn’t be held against you.

    Liked by 1 person

    • That’s a very perceptive comment Sonel about the ‘real’ men macho image, and sadly so true. One of my parents’ friends was just that, slept around, proudly, and often slapped his wife so that she was an expert with make-up. Last time I spoke to them, they were still together. Although naturally, as well as being sexist and abusive he was also racist, so he was a little disappointed his daughter was sleeping with a black man 😀
      It is controversial indeed. I manage to embrace quite a lot of controversy in my life choices. It’s a me thing I guess! But I think when people choose to justify the opposing point of view, they should not clothe it in hypocrisy. For example re the comment I quoted, unwanted Russel? Eat him? I mean, seriously?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sonel says:

        Gosh! That lady must have been a sucker for punishment then. I would have killed him for sure after the first slap.

        I can’t handle people like that and racists are the worst. They do make it difficult for those of us who isn’t.

        I think when it comes down to all of it, it will always be a ‘me thing’ and that doesn’t make you delusional. It makes you someone that cares more for what you believe in and you stand by it.

        We all do what we think is right and most people are totally wrong, doesn’t matter how they want to disguise it.

        How anyone can eat a dog is beyond me, but some people do and they don’t see it the way we do. As animal lovers we can’t think of doing that ever.

        Like

        • She had three kids, no job and lived in UK government housing. I suppose she could have chucked him out. In the end I think they actually bought somewhere. I spoke to them after my parents died. I think they’d been married 30 years by then (ie more than ten years ago).
          Partner was telling someone recently he’d had a Jamaican girlfriend. The friend thought Partner’s Anglo Asian girlfriend was acceptable but didn’t like blacks. I mean really, FFS. How can people be like that? Mind you, he went to a party with the Jamaican and when he walked in, the room fell silent. He was the only white. It works both ways. The difference being that whites haven’t been the underclass.
          I think the issue from a veg perspective is that once you view eating animals as being morally wrong it becomes difficult to justify eating one animal but not another. So when there is a fuss about Koreans or Swiss eating dogs or horses and donkeys ending up in burgers, to a vegetarian it starts to smack of hypocrisy. I know it’s not, because I’ve been on the other side years ago, but rationally, it doesn’t hang together. Anyway, not my ethical issue!

          Liked by 1 person

  8. EllaDee says:

    Bizarre and/or baiting comments on any topic are simply evidence of a lazy, thought-less person behind the keyboard. Awareness and thoughtfulness require exercising of much more intellect and effort. To be fair, possibly some are deficient in that regard. Which makes it all the more advisable to read and learn while respecting other’s POV. Not see it simply as an opportunity for trolling.
    Love the menu, I was hoping you’d include a human body part or 2. Fair’s fair.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I don’t even think they were baiting. Just, justification for life choices. Why justify? Why not say, I like eating animals. It tastes nice and I don’t care they at bred and kills for m food? Is it that difficult?

      The menu. I guess the main course might be quite … tender?

      Like

  9. disperser says:

    Toward the end of this podcast, http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-dark-side, Sam Harris and Paul Bloom discuss the ethics of eating animals. It’s an interesting discussion.

    Actually, the whole podcast is very good, but people don’t often like to hear certain opinions regarding subjects/ideas they hold dear.

    Liked by 2 people

    • disperser says:

      By the way, I eat meat. But, you probably already knew that. And dairy, eggs, and Nutella.

      Liked by 1 person

      • It’s a reasonable assumption that unless someone says otherwise, they eat animals. And I don’t know a lot of vegetarian people who hunt/have hunted with guns either. You eat seafood too, but can’t finish your risotto tut tut.

        Like

        • disperser says:

          Do they use bows and arrows, or are they more traditional with spears and rocks? I hope they are not the honorless kind who trap their vegetables or, worse yet, raise them in captivity, literally keeping them in dirt and only feeding them water before mercilessly ‘harvesting’ with nary a thought other than the smugness derived from their self-justified ways.

          For thousand of years have humans ignore their silent cries of anguish and suffering, deaf to their cries of “leaf us alone!”

          Like

          • I’ll have you know my vegetables are free range, kept with the finest of chicken shit, regularly watered and spoken to. Nor do I rip out full plants if unnecessary. Merely sever the odd leaf or so …

            Like

          • disperser says:

            So, not just dirt, but you dump shit on them. That’s just mean.

            . . . and I won’t even mention what I think about being proud of mutilation and culling of the old . . .

            Like

          • Nice shit. Chicken shit is very yummy. Best shit ever 🙂

            Mutilation is OK. They just grow more leaves.

            Just wait for my forthcoming alcachofa (carciofi?) pic.

            Like

          • disperser says:

            So, would you eat meat if we just chopped pieces off animals and they regrew them?

            Here’s a serious question . . . would you eat artificial (synthesized) meat? Or is it the idea of meat in general that is anathema?

            Never did like carciofi, but I like how they smell.

            Like

          • TVP, or Quorn? But not the same I appreciate.

            It’s the concept of killing animals that is anathema. No need for it.

            I love the smell too.

            Like

    • I listened to some of it, but to be honest a) they said nothing new and b) listening to two trendy middle class intellectuals yakking on about its ok to eat animals if you can’t kill them yourself but not if you ‘morally’ couldn’t kill them yourself, justifying eating animals if they are humanely raised, need for B12, the difficulty of getting the nutritional balance right etc etc. I’ve just heard it all before. It’s like a TV reporter once said to me when we doing some filming, ‘there ain’t nothing new in journalism’, and there are no new arguments – on either side – regarding eating or not eating animals.

      Liked by 1 person

      • disperser says:

        I think it may be new to some (plus, the rest of the podcast is pretty good).

        I too have heard all the arguments and not just with regard to eating meat, but relative to almost every aspect of the way we live. At some point, one has to come to term that this is the way we live. There is also the fact that no matter how ethical and conscientious one person is, there is always someone who is “more” so and can point an accusatory finger as they mouth “you should do more”. For instance, some decry eating any seafood for similar objections to eating meat. Some even decry eating bugs for those same objections.

        I resign myself to the realities of my semi-opulent life, eating what tastes good well past the point of sustenance, driving a bigger car than I need, living in a larger home than I need, meandering through life in conditions much better than the vast majority of human beings. The only consoling thing, and what has me sleeping soundly at night, is that I am term-limited. At some point what I own, everything I’ve touched, will be absorbed back into the environment and it will be as if I never existed.

        I’m also secure in the thought that eventually humans, as a semi-sentient organism, will too cease to exist, and the universe will be no better or worse for it.

        Sure, one can certainly focus on the here and now, the plight of many, the needless suffering that surrounds us, but that way one finds guilt, doubt, self-flagellation, and eventual madness just before being overwhelmed by a feeling of self-loathing and despair.

        Me? I just go with the flow.

        Like

        • For the most part I agree with you. We have our choices in life and we make them. I have no issue with you making choices, that’s your right to do so. Plus I like the honesty in defining them without glossing over it as some ethical challenge you have fought with and wrestled with for ever and a day. I don’t agree with your choices, but, like you, I don’t agree with many people.

          Life is short. We make of our lives whatever we do. I don’t spend my life as a bleeding heart worrying about everything under the sun. Obviously I have a few ’causes’ that I am interested in, which don’t appear on your radar. No matter.

          As you say, one day people will die out. No bad thing in my opinion. I suspect we can agree on that, even if for different reasons.

          Like

        • disperser says:

          Some of that is written in humor, but like all good humor, there is an underlying truth to it.

          One of the pitfalls of “ethical thinking” is that if one comes to a conclusion about something or other, I don’t think it’s enough to “do one’s part”. Were I to really ponder about all the misery and suffering in the world there is simply no “ethical” way to live one’s life while others suffer.

          Most people rationalize their choices by saying “I’m doing something” or “I give to charity” or any of the hundreds of way that allow us to sleep soundly at night.

          Until someone gives me the power and means to change the world, I no longer worry about it. Selfish, I know, but it was a long road getting here, and I don’t regret my decisions on how to live my life.

          As for humanity’s future past the next 1-to-40 years, I worry little about it. I’m sure countless people worried about the then distant future . . . and look where we are now. Sure, some things are good (cookies, ice cream) but is this how we would have “designed” the world had we (humanity) been given the chance to pick and choose? No, wait; we probably would have.

          Like

          • But surely doing some small part is better than nothing? Otherwise we devolve into ostrich syndrome.

            As to whether our goal in life should be a nice house, garden, car, cookies, ice cream? Who is to say? Not mine, but you are welcome to it. I went down a different road.

            I would imagine, based on current intellectual capacity, we would be lucky if we would have ended up with what we have. Could have done with less religion mind.

            Like

          • disperser says:

            My hypothesis on the “small part” approach has been expressed elsewhere, but I will repeat it here.

            I see the small part approach equivalent to setting up a typical Roadrunner cartoon scene.

            The Coyote is chasing the Roadrunner and they both stop, a cloud of dust obscuring the ground. The cloud dissipates to reveal the coyote is not standing on solid ground and he subsequently falls (I understand the falling part has been removed from the cartoons lest we traumatize today’s young).

            So, for instance, conservation is the equivalent of setting up that scene. We think we are doing well by conserving, but all we are doing is traveling further toward the tip of the unstable ledge avoiding finding real and permanent solutions.

            Keep conserving and doing a small part and I think we’ll wake up one morning way past the ledge with no other option but to fail big time.

            My approach is to splurge and waste as much as I can so as to accelerate that moment of reckoning while we are still on solid ground. Precipitate a catastrophe and you will see humanity unite for real solutions. Limp along as we are, and we’re eventually going to find ourselves (hopefully, after I am long dead) in dire straits indeed.

            . . . dire straights . . . I still like that band . . .

            Like

          • Depends on your conscience I guess. Now Dire Straits is another story. I love them too. As do my Spanish neighbours. Except they call them, or rather pronounce them, Dear Streets. So then we had to explain that they were calling them Calles muy caras, and that dire straits meant mucho problemas. Never did work out if it sunk in 😀

            Like

          • disperser says:

            Conscience . . . conscience . . . nope! don’t know what that is.

            Seriously, it’s not a matter of conscience. Cold logic, if anything. The way I see it, we could solve many problems now by hurting a few, or wait until we have no choice and hurt many, many more. There are few times in my life where kicking the proverbial can down the road has proven to be a sound strategy.

            Like

          • You sound like me when I was young. Then, I grew up.

            Liked by 1 person

          • disperser says:

            Oh, I grew up years ago; used to do all the right things and was self-satisfied for “helping”.

            Now I’ve reverted . . . growing up didn’t work out like I thought it would and I found it overrated. Especially when one considers all those “small parts” means all those “large parts” get a pass under the flag “we’re doing something about them.”

            Liked by 1 person

          • That’s true to some extent. But if everyone takes a selfish attitude what does that say about us? Morally, ethically, we all make our choices. You are happy with yours, so, who cares really. And I’m happy with mine.

            Like

          • disperser says:

            And yet, one can’t help but denote a tinge of moral (whatever that is) and ethical (ditto) superiority and an implied castigation by a slightly passive-aggressive statement like ‘we all make our own moral and ethical choices, you have to live with yours {paraphrasing}’.

            Giving someone “permission” to live with the choices they make is tantamount to criticizing same (at least it is when I do it).

            What do our choices say about us? I think it depends on who is doing the saying (see the previous paragraph). But, very few people are privy to the entirety of another human being’s life. To judge based on an assumption of a traveled path could be considered a poor choice one makes with regards to another.

            I agree that strictly from an emphatic perspective, each and every one of us should immediately stop and give up things we take for granted. I’m waiting for everyone else to do so. That way I won’t be tempted to judge those who lag behind my enlightened choices.

            Like

          • People will see what they want to see, and you may, or may not, consider that to be a passive/aggressive statement. People also tend to view others comments and decisions through a filter based on our own way of thinking. Given that I struggle with what goes on in my head, I wouldn’t dream of trying to guess what goes on in others’. Which is really, saying the same as you from a different perspective. Is every opinion we have about other people a judgement?

            Like

          • disperser says:

            To answer your question, yes. There are those who maintain they do not judge, but the very basis of human interaction is an assessment of the character of the other person. It directs the type of interactions one has, and indeed even whether we should interact with a given person. That we compare others to ourselves should be obvious.

            That we try to understand others relative to our own experiences should also be obvious, as should the notion that the path to that understanding might alter our own perception of ourselves and the world.

            Sorry if the previous comment came across as castigation of your wording. I was merely stating the obvious (or so I thought) that I’ve never used that phrase without a hint of a Gallilean “eppure non e giusto.” Perhaps you employ a purer form of it.

            Like

          • disperser says:

            See? That last sentence was entirely superfluous, and could be considered slightly passive aggressive.

            Like

  10. theoccasionalman says:

    I was a vegetarian for a while. And let me say, as a real man, that quiche is fuckin awesome. It takes bravery to confront greens baked in sacrificed chicken embryos first thing in the morning.

    Like

  11. Found this NPR article to be very informative and provocative Roughseas… 🙂

    http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2015/11/paleo-vegan-consensus-food

    Like

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