No. I don’t hate men

One of the silliest arguments I read on the internet is that all feminists hate men. Really, they, or rather, we, do.

This is on a par with all feminists are hairy ugly lesbians, it is so ridiculous.

The view that feminists hate men and want to damage them emotionally, socially, and financially is downright crass.

There are some people I dislike. Some are men. Some are women. Likewise, there are people I like, again some are men, some are women.

None of this has anything to do with feminism. Feminists dislike a system. Feminists want to see the elimination of a patriarchal system that discriminates against anyone who isn’t an alpha male. Preferably a white one.

Suffrage

There is more to feminism than achieving the right to vote. Interestingly, New Zealand was first with the extension of the vote to all women over 21 in 1893. Canada followed (except for Quebec) in 1919, and America timed it in 1920 for a presidential election.

The UK managed to give women over 30 the vote in 1918, based upon property qualifications (historically the UK right to vote was based on property), and universal female suffrage for women over 21 had to wait another ten years.

So? Then what?

Women had the right to vote in the UK. A big step forward. But just one.

Education

Around the same time, Oxford University finally allowed women to receive a degree (1920). Women had been attending Oxford since the 1870s and passing examinations with honours. But, because they weren’t men, they couldn’t graduate.

The first woman to gain honours in a University examination which was intended to be equivalent to that taken by men for a degree was Annie Mary Anne Henley Rogers. In 1877 she gained first class honours in Latin and Greek in the Second Examination for Honours in the recently instituted ‘Examination of Women’. In 1879 she followed this with first class honours in Ancient History.

Annie Rogers returned to Oxford to matriculate and graduate on 26 October 1920.

So two battles won?

Well not really. I’ve written before about how my mother was narrowly allowed to go to grammar school because her mother saw no need for it, and despite attending for a few years, she was finally pulled out of school to do the cleaning, ironing, cooking etc for the men in the family, approximately 20 years after the first women graduated from Oxford. My grandmother got her own way in the end. Life was different for the working class woman in the late 1930s.

Education is one of the cornerstones of feminism. Along with health care, bodily autonomy and economic independence.

Pregnancy, from the World Health Organisation

Maternal deaths have dropped from 427 000 in the year 2000 to 289 000 in 2013, but are still unacceptably high: nearly 800 women die due to complications of pregnancy and childbirth every day.

We’re mostly looking at low income countries, but look at this comment from a blog two years ago about childbirth in America:

Bearing a child is still one of the most dangerous things a woman can do. It’s the sixth most common cause of death among women age 20 to 34 in the United States. If you look at the black-box warning on a packet of birth control pills, you’ll notice that at most ages the risk of death from taking the pills is less than if you don’t take them—that’s because they’re so good at preventing pregnancy, and pregnancy kills. The risk flips only after age 35 because birth control pills increase the risk of stroke. (Psst, guys, you know what makes an excellent 35th birthday present for your partner? Getting a vasectomy.)

So. Contraception has made one big difference to women. It’s reduced our chances of dying young from repetitive strain injury childbirth.

And, the other major factor that has moved forward women’s rights, was being able to go to work and earn money.

Employment

Now, women are no longer dependent on being passed as a dependent chattel from one man (father) to another (husband) to serve as a brood mare, and risk their health in endless pregnancies. We can go to university, vote and get jobs. We can provide for ourselves. We can have sex without the risk (or a very low risk) of getting pregnant.

There are equal opportunity laws. Life has moved on. We are now all equal. Sure. Women and other minority groups really want to add the stress of taking a case as well as being discriminated against because we now have legal recourse to do so. In theory, everything is there for us. No more worries, discrimination in the workplace doesn’t happen? How many stories do you want from my office? Sexual harassment? Discrimination while pregnant? Laws don’t end discrimination, and they put the onus on the discriminated.

At the same time, while legislation, education and health care may have changed in the western world, attitudes haven’t. Women continue to be brought up to attract a mate, a secure meal ticket so they can have a couple of kids, sit back, put their feet up, and be a good housewife. Pretty much what my mother aimed for.

Except. Life doesn’t work out like that.

Divorce

Because, we know plenty of men who haven’t just got divorced, they have literally walked from a toxic relationship and left their ex-wife and kids with everything. These men are now in their 50s and living in rented accommodation while their ex-wives sit prettily in the (bought) houses funded by their working husbands. And if these men don’t get work? How do they eat and pay their bills and rent?

And the classic. It used to be the gossip in the UK that young women would get pregnant to get council housing. Well, that still happens today. Some women in Gibraltar meet someone, (preferably British and innocent), get pregnant, and … chuck out the bloke shortly afterwards. The woman either gets government housing or sits prettily in bought or rented accommodation while the man pays. The same applies in Spain, women with kids have all the rights.

This is not to say all women do it. And maybe they aren’t playing someone. But some do.

One woman, divorced, said the other night that divorce was one of the biggest reasons people faced financial problems. The split, and the ensuing payments, whether they happened or not, can wreck someone’s life. Not just women’s lives, but men’s lives too.

So, why am I, as a red-card-carrying feminist standing up for the men? Because, men and women, all suffer from a rigid society that imposes artificial constructs upon us.

Men are not the problem. They suffer under patriarchy, as do women, differently, but they still suffer.

They suffer because they are cast in the role of financial provider, as protector of that cute little woman whose sole role is to pop out a couple of kids. Or more, depending on your religion. Just why, should men have to buy a woman? And spend their whole life paying?

Men suffer because women are taught silly rules about sexuality, and think they should use their sexuality to trap men. There is no honesty within these games.

I’m not talking about powerful people here, because little affects them. Just the ordinary person on the street. Who can’t even see what’s hitting them.

Feminism helps men and women. Here’s a short quote from Huff.

In fact, a new piece in the New York Times’ data blog Upshot suggests that the divorce rate has actually been dropping for some time now.

The feminist movement of the 1970s played a considerable role in where the divorce rate is now, according to economists Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfer. As women entered the work force and gained reproductive rights, marriage began to evolve into its “modern-day form, based on love and shared passions, and often two incomes and shared housekeeping duties.”

I think that says it all. No set role. We each do what we can to make sure our relationship works. In our case, my career, his business, whoever cooks and cleans as and when does that. No expectation based on gender. I didn’t expect anyone to provide for me in return for domestic slavery or sex.

No one has the right to a free meal ticket, not men, not women. And men, if you think that it’s your role in life to provide and protect, you have bought right into patriarchal bullshit.

And to finish and re-emphasise:

Feminists do not hate men. Feminists want to end patriarchy. Feminists merely want a level playing field for everyone. Feminism isn’t a gender war. It’s trying to destroy an age-old artificial construct.

Nor do feminists alienate men. It’s hardly as though my blogs are short of comments from men.

But please don’t believe equality yet exists. It doesn’t. Women are still a minority social group.

For those of you who like the academic side of things, here is an excerpt from a thought-provoking piece:

in her landmark feminist analysis of oppression, Marilyn Frye writes that it encompasses “a system of interrelated barriers and forces which reduce, immobilize and mold people who belong to a certain group, and effect their subordination to another group.”6 Others add that oppression presents multiple faces, including marginalization, exploitation, and powerlessness, and extends beyond economic and political forces to include psychological barriers that reduce, limit, or mold people as members of certain groups.7 Ann Cudd also clarifies that, by means of physical violence, economic domination, and psychologically coercive forces, oppression is essentially “an institutionally structured harm perpetrated on groups by other groups,” in which a privileged social group benefits from the harm endured by the oppressed.8

And for the men who read my blogs, I love you all, lots. 🙂

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About roughseasinthemed

I write about my life as an English person living in Spain and Gibraltar, on Roughseas, subjects range from politics and current developments in Gib to book reviews, cooking and getting on with life. My views and thoughts on a variety of topics - depending on my mood of the day - can be found over on Clouds. A few pix are over on Everypic - although it is not a photoblog. And of course my dog had his own blog, but most of you knew that anyway. Pippadogblog etc
This entry was posted in Atheism, feminism, health, life, Longreads, Religion, Sexism, WPlongform and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

81 Responses to No. I don’t hate men

  1. pinkagendist says:

    And that’s how it’s done- and I think we all have to do a whole lot more of this. Educating people is key.

    Liked by 2 people

    • I don’t know. There is some nasty effective propaganda going around. Have I ever written anything about hating men?

      That sort of rhetoric is aimed at the lowest common denominator. It has nothing to do with feminism.

      Trouble is, we mix in like minded circles, for the most part. Will anyone else read? Maybe.

      Liked by 2 people

      • pinkagendist says:

        Setting the record straight publicly means that anyone interested can make up their own mind.

        Liked by 1 person

        • No, it’s not setting the record straight. It’s merely putting forward one point of view with minimal sources given this is a blog post.

          You and I know we could both quote from here to wherever to prove our point.

          Liked by 2 people

          • pinkagendist says:

            True- but a public opinion that opposes patriarchal propaganda still means the young person who reads one may also read the other. And speaking just as myself, I would have loved it if that was available to me way back in my (pre-internet) teenage years. Just one dissenting voice would have made a world of difference.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Maybe to me too. Or maybe we were both rebels when young. Just didn’t realise it. Sometimes it can be easier to find it without external noise. Don’t know.

            Still, if anyone finds my blog and it makes them think, that’s a result. Oh wait! Someone did! Wasn’t it bimbette? 😀

            Liked by 2 people

          • pinkagendist says:

            I think you mean Madam B. 😛

            Like

  2. disperser says:

    I gave my present when I was 22. My doctor argued with me and didn’t want to do it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Would that be the same present my partner wasn’t allowed to do at a similar age?

      Like

    • disperser says:

      We had been married a year and I happened to read the warnings on the birth-control box . . . The idea of having kids had already been set aside, and it was a small step to making it permanent. I was told I might regret it later on . . . not even close.

      Funny (side story). The main office of my company had around 22 employees. One year, Melisa and I left for a week-long vacation. When we came back, three of my employees (also friends) asked me to guess what they did while we were gone. I immediately replied “vasectomy” and they were stunned. They had gotten a “group deal”. All already had kids, and all were in their 30’s. It was an educated guess on my part, but completely out of the blue as the subject had not been spoken about before.

      . . . my employees were all pretty smart . . .

      Liked by 1 person

      • Just lol! My partner tried before he was married (to me) but it was a no-no. It was a done deal when we met. We went through the ‘counselling’, yawn even while typing this. And shazzam. Easy. Well for me. He nearly passed out.

        And, 30 years later, no regrets.

        Shame it’s not more widely spoken about.

        My husbands brother would hate kids but wouldn’t dream of doing it. Where’s the logic in that?

        Liked by 1 person

        • Ruth says:

          I wanted kids, my ex-husband didn’t. He would not even consider having a vasectomy. He thought I was selfish for asking. I thought he was selfish for not doing it. It really was asshattery on his part to expect the person who wanted children to be the person responsible for preventing it. Not to mention the nasty side-effects of birth control pills. Smh…

          Like

          • Some flawed logic there Ruth on his part. Having said that, it was one of the few issues we discussed (for about five seconds) before we decided to live together. At least we agreed.

            Like

    • disperser says:

      Correction, I was 23 . . . and married less than a year. Had to think about that for a moment.

      Like

  3. “New Zealand was first with the extension of the vote to all women over 21 in 1893. ”

    Nope, the Lakota all persons of age 16 voted male and female and each equal to a single count. 🙂 Go Lakota..

    I’m not a feminist nor GLBT because I refuse to let the vocal minority define me. I am a freedom fighter. 🙂 Makes me sound more batman..errr batwoman (ish). hehehe

    Liked by 3 people

    • That’s a fair enough comment Michelle. I’ve been trying to read up on your people.

      And, obviously white people’s nations excluded yours.

      But, on reading current leaders, they all appear to be men, yes?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Yes most women decided they don’t want the attention politics brings. Little Crow was the last female leader I can think of and she died on the reservation some decade plus ago. The criticisms from white media is something most of the ladies in Lakota avoid. We just don’t want it.

        Look how the media treats women here. Even Hillary Clinton is lambasted and they love her. Now look at Sarah Palin hell they attacked her children. Sorry we have more class than that so we stay out of the lime light. But women still sit on elder meetings and are still locally represented in positions of power. At least on the reservations.

        Typically though a man is chief which is true because chief was also the war general and well men are better at breaking things and blowing things up than we ladies. (In general anyway)

        Liked by 2 people

        • But sitting in on meetings is well, subservient, isn’t it?

          Palin is attacked because she lacks intelligence.

          I appreciate you aren’t feminist, but women can lead, and have done.

          Liked by 1 person

          • No not subservient. All who sit in elder meetings have an equal say, equal voice and make decisions to be brought to the tribe for a full vote if needed. The determine if we go to war, use land for this or that, and any important issue. it is like the tribal council.

            Also many women even today sit in out Sioux national council. They are not attacked by anyone for being a native and on the council local or national. They just choose to not run for offices/positions external to our nation.

            As for Palin being dumb that is a matter for debate but one I don’t care to debate. Irregardless they attacked her children, her husband, her grandchildren. Had the comedian said the same things about Hillary Clintons Children he’d have been fired.

            This treatment is why our women simply say nope won’t run, I won’t be a figure for white media to attack. We value our children and value our peace, so we stick to our own and allow the men to be front and center to white media. Pretty much just a choice but not a reality that couldn’t change should a woman decide to be in such a position.

            My mother could have won the position on the indian affairs national stage. She declined because of those reasons.

            Choice is not servitude. It is exercising our freedoms to choose. I wouldn’t choose to expose myself to the white media so they could call my son a bastard, me a slut, my wife and I sinners and all the names and attacks that go with it. I just won’t do it and that’s because I love my family and have self respect. So it for me and most Lakota women is not something we would choose to do.

            Liked by 1 person

          • pinkagendist says:

            Not sure about about this discussion- for reasons I’m sure you’ve already identified.

            Like

  4. “Because, men and women, all suffer from a rigid society that imposes artificial constructs upon us” – spot on. It’s a brilliant post actually. No, you don’t hate men, you hate the system that causes such injustice as catalogued above. Me too. I also think the last line is lovely. I have more male friends than female, it just so happens, but all of my friends are like minded. You mention in the comments – will anyone but just those kind of like-minded people read this? Yes they will, because I’m positive that your comments on other blogs draw the curious and furious in, and many of those people will assume you are a man-hating, bearded, lesbian who eats babies and spits out the bones whilst urinating on an altar in church, because you dare to challenge their beliefs. I reckon the title alone of this post will garner a good few people, and maybe, maybe some of them, will get it. Or/and ponder at their initial assumptions. We can only hope.

    – s.u.t.Cloud

    Liked by 2 people

    • Thank you my cloudless friend.

      I have always had more male friends too. And why is that? Because I was brought up to value men. Or maybe they are soooooo sexy. OK I didn’t say that. I really don’t judge men as sex objects,

      Now, were where we?

      Oh yes, I’m just a middle aged woman with sad fantasies?

      Liked by 2 people

      • Call them cheeky, sneaky, peeky fantasies instead…and you’ll enjoy them all the more. It’s all in the language you know *winks laughing* .

        – s.u.t.Cloud

        Liked by 2 people

        • I’m wondering why I called you cloudless? Must have been failing at multi tasking or predictive text took over.

          Fantasies are what they are 🙂 I don’t really think they are sad 😉

          And I particularly like men because they are fun to tease, and play back nicely.

          However apart from some of them, not that many, being sexually attractive, men, like women are people, and we should all do well to remember that and not view everything in polarised terms.

          Liked by 1 person

  5. “No one has the right to a free meal ticket, not men, not women.” This would be a good start to an equal world. (But it bring out so many whiners of what about this or that?)
    There seems to be such wobbling back and forth on this.
    Maybe it was easier on the frontier for women to be considered an equal partner – far away from polite society telling you you couldn’t do this or that. Someone has to manage the logistics, books, digging crops, livestock care – and if the man is off taking cattle to market or riding fences. hitch up those skirts and get to work (after the house/kids/usually cooking….) Women did it all and more…then
    Both my grandmothers had degrees and worked. My mother had a Masters of Science like my dad. But on our block, she was the only working woman (and many “felt sorry for her”) Some had college, some had only high school. My mom needed to work to feel like a person – an equal partner. She was not one who should have ever been forced to be a “housewife”. She was miserable in that role even though she played in the city orchestra. It wasn’t enough. A paycheck showed value.
    Still women of that era who studied science or math instead of liberal arts/music were rare. I’ve been the breakthrough woman in a man’s position in a couple of jobs. Sometimes I shiver when seeing the rebirth of frilly aprons, girdles, and ultra high heels worried those attitudes are reemerging and women will be forced back into that box, I do not have trouble if one chooses that freely, but are the options offered equally? There’s a lot of early conditioning reemerging quietly.
    Some feminists do annoy and alienate not only men but young women, too. Shrill, bitter, and angry. It does not help.
    Your bolded heading highlights the key things that must be addressed.
    People need to be partners. Equal.
    (And that means feeding the cat sometimes, too)

    Liked by 2 people

    • But. but I’m cute and batting my eyes gets me free meals. /pout

      Liked by 2 people

    • Wow, fancy your grandmothers having degrees. I’m the first in my family. First to have two degrees AFAIK too. But, that doesn’t mean we don’t do other work of whatever type. Before the ankle break I’d share the cleaning of our block with partner, work on the Land Rover(s) with him, wash out when he’s plastering/decorating, calculate the drops for paperhanging, wheel barrows of earth on archaeological digs … none of those jobs are gender specific, nor should they be.

      Lipstick feminism? I’ve pondered a post on that one. It’s not quite something I advocate. A retrograde step in too high heels, oops, fallen over already, and that too tight skirt didn’t help either.

      Achieving change takes all sorts. Some people need to be outspoken, others need to be working more quietly, but just as determinedly. Did the (British) suffragettes achieve the vote for women or was it happening anyway? Did they accelerate progress? Hard to say.

      The issue is that women as a societal group are not treated equally. That’s easy and non-negotiable. Not talking about individuals here. Both women and men suffer under patriarchal society because most of us are brought up with those views, and as you say, early conditioning. Rebelling takes courage and a like mind. And a willingness to reject the accepted norm. ’Twas ever thus.

      Please pass RC a tin of tuna.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Well said.
        No way near equal. Hard work done in the style that suits the individual best. We do need the loud annoying voices as well as the “I’ll work harder, do better, and outshine them all – and insist my work be recognized” individual, too. Multifaceted front. Neither angle is easier than the other or a shorter route.
        Both means roads the individual must be strong and expect consequences.
        We just come from families with strong women that were equal partners and brave. My husband’s grandmother was the first female reporter on a major city news paper – and a widowed young with 3 boys. She was tough. His mother was the first woman doc (Internal medicine) in Houston/left being a debutante/piano teacher fought her way through med school despite society and her families despair. My grandmother – and several great aunt were both widowed young and had mouths to feed. Tough as nails, but didn’t consider themselves exceptional.Maybe it was easier in the West were there was more emphasis on independence and self reliance rather than social graces. Intellect and education was always valued though.
        Until individuals are all seen as valuable and having something to offer(and willing to do so), real equality will be elusive. Will life among humans ever be fair?
        AH, RC has seen the tin, so staff must respond. She sends a grateful paw wave and assures you Molly sends her best to Snowy and Pippa – but there will be no mud flinging paw waves until she is hosed off from running in the field with friends ( One rainless day! Cheers! Everyone outside)

        Liked by 1 person

      • “Did the (British) suffragettes achieve the vote for women or was it happening anyway? Did they accelerate progress?” – I’d say they absolutely did. For their actions will have been noticed, and processed by women (and indeed men) all over the country, some of whom would never have even considered that they should or could have a vote. Some of whom will have been in awe, and it will have given them hope and strength to change their own thoughts, and turn conversations all over the UK to the subject. Without them it would have happened, but it would not have happened so quickly, nor so potently in terms of social effect. Or so I believe.

        – sonmi upon the Cloud

        Liked by 1 person

        • I posed the question about the Brit suffragettes because, at school, I was taught that they did accelerate progress. They did achieve the vote for women. They did change views. But I was taught that 40 years ago. I have, since, read around, and I would need to read much more deeply to say they honestly caused a significant societal change. Or, perhaps that is the rewriting of history? That determined brave women weren’t so important as we were all led to believe? Perhaps I should go with O-level history after all.

          Like

  6. john zande says:

    Is that sandwich coming anytime soon?

    Liked by 4 people

  7. davidprosser says:

    The best we can hope for is that through tweeting more people read your message but more importantly, understand it.We need true equality which isn’t going to happen as long as we stick to our assigned path in life. More people of both sexes are refusing to follow that path thanks to people like you who offer some decent education on the subject.
    xxx Gigantic Hugs xxx

    Liked by 1 person

    • Nobody’s going to read my message through my tweeting! Me and tweeting don’t get on. I did it years ago and the banality of it left me tweetless at the time. All I can remember is conversations about Canadian hockey and going out in the rain. It was like the Facebook conversations about going to Starbucks for lattes.

      People have always bucked convention and stereotypes but it’s important to continue to promote it. That way we get change. The Irish referendum is a classic and successful result of that. People are afraid to be different, afraid to go first, but when other people step out there, it makes it easier for others.

      Liked by 2 people

      • It’s luck y then that you don’t have to tweet. As long as you have the tweet button and others of us do tweet, we will. Some newbies will see the post.
        You’re right, The Irish referendum was a classic.
        xxx Huge Hugs xxx

        Like

  8. makagutu says:

    I knew you loved me and was just looking for the opportune moment to say it. You know me loves you too B-).
    Education is key to solving humanity’s problems. Good education, an education that not only prepares people for careers but one that teaches them to think critically.

    Liked by 3 people

    • I loves you all. But specially you of course. And yes, I knew 🙂

      Education is interesting. It doesn’t even need to be academic. My partner did a five year apprenticeship so basically qualified and came out of his time at the same age I left university. So although I’m the one with a school O-level in chemistry, his knowledge of chemical properties and reactions in materials he uses is way above mine, eg solvents, viscosity, how to treat problems, blah blah, and that’s before we even get into technical skills like spray painting.

      What a good education teaches us is not how to parrot something off, but to learn how to think and critically apply skills because we can find answers ourselves. It doesn’t matter what the subject is, it’s the ability to determine the right way to reach our destination. And to be able to change that route if we meet an unforeseen obstacle. Sorry, I’m waxing philosophical and metaphorical here, but I’m sure you get the gist. We learn to think in a specific skill/subject area, but then we should apply that technique to everything. And that’s where some people fail.

      Liked by 3 people

      • makagutu says:

        waxing philosophical is my staple diet, you know.
        I agree with you. It is not just about learning calculus, but being able to apply the skills learnt in other areas. Being both analytical and critical, I think should be the aim of all education

        Like

        • I started a reply this morning and lost it 😦

          Ah yes. I actually did the rote learning thing. I was good at memorising and churning out facts and figures and doing my times tables. And calculus.

          A friend of mine went for her university interview for an engineering degree. She was asked about the elasticity of toffee. Toffee, I thought? We haven’t learnt about toffee in physics. But, she was smarter than me, and worked out the answer. It took me a while to learn that education is more than memorising text books. Longer than it did to work out the bible was full of holes 😀

          History was a good degree for me though. While I thought it would be nice easy fact-learning, I learned to question. To look for answers myself. And then … journalism.

          Life itself is such an education and a progression. We can always learn. I consider my time spent on WP as educational. And fun with friends 🙂

          Like

          • makagutu says:

            I have learnt quite a lot on WP. I have met very interesting people too. So it is been worth the time spent on it.

            I think you must have been a good journalist. I see the things that pass for columns in our dailies and I cringe for their audience.

            I am bad at rote learning. I would fail at it any day.

            Like

          • I like the people. Well, most of them 😀

            Journalistic skills have declined. I cringe too. I won one national award, but really I think my writing improved and was more influential when I moved into PR and corporate work. Much more challenging.

            Luck of the draw I guess as to a good memory.

            Like

  9. Hariod Brawn says:

    Does the misandry we all observe at times discredit feminism, and is it a false association?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yes. Mostly,I’m would say yes to that too. Certainly when I spent times on radical fem forums, most of the women were in relationships with men, or wanted to be, with a few lesbians and bi-sexuals. There was no hatred of men expressed, although people might recount individual incidents where they described sexist behaviour/language. But everybody expressed the views I’ve put forward above, it’s the construct that’s the problem, not the people per se. Sure people individually contribute, whether wittingly or otherwise but that doesn’t justify ‘hating’ half the population.

      I think it is neat anti-feminist propaganda, often churned out by religious people (women usually) who are renowned for their ‘atheists hate God/Christians’ rhetoric too. I suspect many feel challenged because my views are challenging their power base. I have no problem with someone being a stay-at-home mum, with 20 children, wearing make-up every day, revealing clothes, totally shaven, and high heels if that’s a genuinely informed choice. But it’s not mine, and it’s not the choice of others, and I want to be able to exercise my choice.

      But individual views are not the same as those of academics or ‘leaders’ within the feminist movements, of whatever wave. Some have been outspoken against men. And, like the cared-for pampered Disney princesses, why would anyone want to see the status quo change if it suits?

      Hatred and misandry, and misogyny, are very strong words. I don’t see it, which is why I think it is important to point it out. I don’t see men worried about commenting on my blog thinking I am full of hate 😀

      Like

      • Hariod Brawn says:

        Of course no one here thinks you have a hate-based agenda (maybe IB does if she’s lurking), and the above article is, in my view, very fairly balanced without pandering to this side or that. As with all ideological movements, Feminism attracts its share of dullards, and the (false) association with it and misandry is not entirely dismissible in my view, however unfortunate that association may be. It is, however, just an association, in the way that, say, hooliganism is associated with football and Justin Bieber is falsely associated with music. You say, “it’s the construct that’s the problem, not the people”, though surely one must concede that the converse applies too here, and not just in instances of anti-feminist propaganda?

        Like

        • It’s the usual story, people are unable to differentiate between the political and the personal.

          I’ve not met too many dullards but I have met a fair few hypocrites :). Where do you see the evidence for misandry, out of interest?

          Luckily I have never heard Bieber, even though I have watched a fine football match which exuded crowd violence. The match was stopped at one point. I mean, watched, as in I was there.

          The reverse applies in that people unwittingly perpetuate it. Is ignorance a crime?

          Like

          • Hariod Brawn says:

            Evidence of misandry can fairly readily be found in most public forums engaging in gender politics – try the CIF forums in The Guardian for starters. Misandry and misogyny are both forms of hatred as you say, yet often they come neatly packaged in what the psycho-babblers call ‘passive aggression’ – just revealing enough so as you feel it, but not overt enough that you can make any accusations: everything is deniable. Yes, there is a deeply unpleasant tribalistic machismo prevailing in footie throughout the world, though that doesn’t qualify as hooliganism; it’s just blokes being arseholes trying to prove something to themselves and their peers that none of them quite believe in. And yes again, I take your point, and am sympathetic to those who through an inability to think independently take on received opinions – we’ve all had or known a racist grandparent or two; doncha just love ’em?

            Liked by 1 person

  10. I enjoyed reading this post Roughseas as well as the comments. As you know well, I’m learning more about my own “sexist” vocabulary and innocent viewpoints. 😉

    I am SO GLAD you mentioned how sexism is a two-way or multi-way street, i.e. your Divorce section. That’s a very sensitive subject for me. 😦

    Great post! ❤

    Liked by 1 person

    • I wasn’t aware the word you and innocent ever met in the same sentence. There’s no need to put sexist in quotation marks. It is what it is.

      Well, it’s true. Just as women are sexist, men are victims too. I just quoted one Huff article that showed how feminism benefits men and women, but there are plenty of serious sociological studies that go into much more depth.

      Of course, the whole concept of being a paid sex-slave 😉 merely serves to make me dig my heels in. I’m not impressed with silly expensive meals designed to impress and seduce me. How stupid do people think I am? Hence I think any relationship should be based on financial and sexual and emotional equality. Nobody should be manipulated into paying for my life. That’s why I think it is sad that so many men do get manipulated.

      But there we go. That’s life. The trouble is most men don’t realise how and why they have been screwed. Men have a lot to gain from feminism. A lot. Do you see hatred in any of my comments to the male commenters on this thread? (I’ll list which are male if you like 😉 I willingly agreed to most requests above 😉 Don’t start with yours though. Or at least keep it to sandwiches and football.

      Liked by 3 people

      • LOL…I have no desire to cross you Roughseas! We are ultimately on the same team despite my innocent mistakes. Sandwiches and football suit us just fine! 😀

        Liked by 1 person

      • I said this originally on another unnamed for fear of baiting forum.
        “Most jerks are easy to shake when they want the score. Want the secret? I’ma share it anyway.
        Don’t be easy or desperate, go dutch and listen with you head as much as your heart.
        Don’t be easy or desperate. It seems to me to many women are in a panic mode to find a man. They are willing to sleep with him sooner to “get him” before he gets away. Honestly ladies if he doesn’t find you worth waiting for I have a four letter word you can use to him… NEXT! he isn’t worth your time and investment.
        Go dutch. You will never feel you “owe” him anything since you both invested the same time and paid your own way. Also drive yourself there! No guilt about going on a date. He didn’t pay your way, and you are both investing time to discover what the other is REALLY like. Anyone can fake it for a while but sooner or later you discover if they are real or fake.
        Listen with your head and your heart. You might think it’s love but things he says may tell you otherwise just be smart when it comes to listening and don’t ignore the red flags.

        Using these the players will leave because they want the quick and easy score and let’s face it you are worth more than a notch on someones headboard. I have no set time table for sleeping with a guy the first time but I can tell you they wait! Always at least two months and a dozen plus dates.
        Why? because I’ve found the players, even the ones who REALLY want you will leave after 4 or 5 or 6 with no tail and no sign of it soon. I won’t even kiss a guy on the first date period end of story, you aren’t coming up to my place for coffee and I’ll meet you somewhere but you aren’t getting my address any time soon.
        So far I’ve not been played. If they invest the time and are willing to see the real me and show me the real them, we’ll talk about where things go from there. They might even get that first kiss. But you got to be willing to see the value in me and show me the value in you or it’s a no go. Believe it!”

        I never feel I “Owe” anyone for taking me out guy or girl. If it’s a new relationship to avoid the owing or expectations I use the above rules to weed out the guys looking solely for sex. (Girls too as I am Bi though my wife doesn’t want other women so well that stopped some time ago).

        Liked by 2 people

  11. EllaDee says:

    Although as you commented, we mix in like minded circles, for the most part I find your views and material fascinating, as well as the other commentary and exchange. It’s not a forum to which I have exposure otherwise and expands my narrow experience. My philosophy is we’re all different but the same and equal… or any version thereof so long as the three key words appear. And that’s not accomplished by hating anyone but by knowing, liking, loving, respecting ourselves and ergo, others. Not so difficult in principle but in practice for some…

    Liked by 1 person

    • I’m lucky with my commenters. You all put a lot of thought into reading through and then adding your two penn’orth.

      Your philosophy is fine. If everyone had that and avoided putting people in boxes life would be so much easier. If only …

      Liked by 1 person

  12. My son graduated from Memorial U yesterday with a Bachelor of Engineering. It was interesting to note that a little more than one in three of the class was composed of women. Back when i graduated not only were women almost nonexistant but, more importantly, they were made to feel unwelcome by their peers and even their teachers. Nice to see “some” change. One of the women engineers who graduate in the same year as I did, Moya Cahill, has had a brilliant career; an industry and business leader in St. John’s. That’s the good news. The bad? I could go on at length about the “old boys’ network” that is still pretty much a thing here but I imagine you don’t need me to do that.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Belated congrats for him and your family. Change is slow, but if it is even there it’s good.

      One of my schoolfriends went into engineering. Lost touch, but I’m sure she’ll have done ‘well’ whatever that is …

      Doubt the old boys network will ever die out. It’s a question of living with it, accepting it, and on occasion, marginalising it.

      Like

  13. Ruth says:

    I love this post! Especially the part that describes just one way that feminism benefits men. Somehow anti-feminist women have this idea that if we were all dependent on the men financially there would be less divorce. I don’t think that’s the case at all. There would just be more men living in crappy apartments so he could afford the child-support and alimony so the woman who bore his children could continue to live the same lifestyle she’d become accustom to.

    I think that we would all benefit if we all looked at relationships, whether friendships, business, or romance as partnerships. Contrary to what those who tout a more traditional gender role society may think, the inequality that breeds is actually the cause of dissatisfaction and dissension.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks Ruth. There are too many misconceptions about feminism. And to take three examples, do you, or Victoria or I, argue against men, or for a system that discriminates against them? Of course not. Equality can’t fail to benefit everyone because it makes the most of people’s abilities, potential etc, both as individuals and in terms of relationships and wider communities.

      Stereotypical roles are rooted in bad messages from the past. I want to do what I can in my personal ( and as you say business and friendships) relationships so that everyone benefits. What’s difficult about that?

      Feminism isn’t about reversing roles and relationships. It’s about expanding them for everyone’s advantage. Aaaagh!

      Like

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