Today’s free offer: a female slave and cashback too

My short-lived addiction to browsing religious blogs has been cured. I hope.

On the other hand, I’m rather drawn to some of the atheist ones.

Visiting (briefly) the religious ones, I was very impressed with the way all the atheists seemed to be able to quote Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua, Noah, or whatever all these books are called. Chapter and individual verse without a doubt.

Then, to my horror, yes more shock horror, as it seems to accompany anything to do with religion, I realised the reason a lot of these people write so strongly about religion, or rather atheism, is because they were in fact brainwashed educated in their early youth to believe in fairyland. Sad. Very sad.

So, this is an acknowledgement to those former religious people who have had the courage to chuck it, it can’t have been easy. Hence they have all worried about burning in hell.

Me, and most of my readers, don’t write about it because it doesn’t impact on our lives. I can’t imagine that sort of fear. And total control.

I can’t argue the interpretation of Genesis 1.20 or whatever. (My bibles are not with me so I can’t quote accurately but nor would I be interested in doing so).

To me, I can’t see the value of using something I don’t believe in, to argue a point with someone who won’t change their opinion or belief.

It’s a question of logic, not in a philosophical sense, perhaps common sense would be a better description.

So my feeble comments on any of these religious sites, is merely to say, this doesn’t hold water, or it is unreasonable or disrespectful to other people. Why is life not as simple as that?

Which brings me to what I really want to write about.

violetwisp wrote an interesting post about christian women submitting to their husbands and doing what they are told.

Because, you know, your husband knows best. Well, no he doesn’t, so that is silly in the extreme. (I should add violet’s post was not endorsing that crazy ideology).

Let me give you an example.

We have a Land Rover. Well, we have three of them actually, but I’m just talking about one for now.

The hand brake, which is actually a transmission brake, needs to be sorted. I sit on the pavement with the manual while he does the mechanics under the vehicle. When repairing Land Rovers the theory is to put it back the same way you took something out.

I was not happy with this. The manual differed from the way the transmission brake had been cobbled together.

‘No,’ I said, very clearly. ‘This is what you do. This is what the manual says (RTFM), this is what I am saying, so this is how you do it.’

This is what is called an equal relationship where we both use our skills, experience and knowledge appropriately. He did what I said.

The transmission brake worked much better after that.

Would an idiotic submissive woman have said: ‘Oh yes darling, that’s the right way to do it.’ ?? When the manual clearly said differently??

Or would she have been inside on domestic slave duty? Rather than sitting on the pavement reading the Series III manual?

What about domestic slaves?

Well, as we all know, women are objects to purchase and sell.

Purchase in the case of prostitution (as are men too, but I’m guessing without doing any statistical research here, that there are far more female prostitutes than male ones). And after all, sex trafficking is the new slavery is it not? Women, forever destined to be slaves of some type or other.

Selling, as in giving your daughter away in marriage. In fact, women are so worthless, that you not only have to give them away, you have to pay to give them away by providing a dowry.

They are an object to pass around from one man to another. Hence, they change their name on change of ownership. That’s why they wear rings, to denote that they are owned by someone.

Is this too difficult to understand?

Even today, we perpetuate the past. How many of you out there have a wife, or are a wife and have taken your husband’s name, and wear a wedding ring? Without even thinking of the symbolism.

A woman left on the shelf is a woman who is undesirable. Not worthy of a man so therefore not worthy in society. It still applies today.

But if you don’t believe me, let’s have a look at an excellent example of blatant misogyny:

Here is a great post from Vishal Baroo:

A real shocker is Shri Abu Azmi-ji who tells us that girls having sexual relationship outside marriage should be hanged and let us quote seignor Azmi, “Under Islam, rape is punishable… any woman if, whether married or unmarried, goes along with a man, with or without her consent, should be hanged. Both should be hanged. It shouldn’t be allowed even if a woman goes by consent.” 

Ooof. What does that say about the status of objects women?

Mmmm, kill a woman for having consensual sex. Er, why?

And for those of us who think the Christian right wing evangelicals don’t impact on our life? Wrong. Here’s a link from neuronotes that she sent me via comments, please read the link, but here are a few tasters:

The conservative preacher, a taciturn figure with a crown of white hair on his balding dome, and a stern, lined face, delivered a searing message. “Sexually twisted people will rape animals,” Green thundered. “Sexual abnormalities,” including homosexuality, he said, citing Leviticus, are “a deep cancerous tumor in the entire society.”

After years of isolation from the world, America’s Christian right began, roughly a decade ago, to engage internationally. It started with the United Nations, which Christian conservatives feared would establish progressive international norms on reproductive rights, gay rights, cloning, and other issues.

Very, very worrying.

My reproductive rights are of no issue. However I do wish for other women to have control over their own bodies. Rather than the religious right to control them and subject women to yet more control and treat them as no more than a consumable to buy off the shelf. Or to take as part of a property deal. Or however else macho society and the big three patriarchal religions choose to deal with women. We’re still just pawns in a very large game that we aren’t even playing.

Please people, do not say there is equality between men and women. There will never be equality while these attitudes persist and while people unwittingly support them.

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About roughseasinthemed

I write about my life as an English person living in Spain and Gibraltar, on Roughseas, subjects range from politics and current developments in Gib to book reviews, cooking and getting on with life. My views and thoughts on a variety of topics - depending on my mood of the day - can be found over on Clouds. A few pix are over on Everypic - although it is not a photoblog. And of course my dog had his own blog, but most of you knew that anyway. Pippadogblog etc
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111 Responses to Today’s free offer: a female slave and cashback too

  1. Ruth says:

    Thank you for this post. The whole ‘submission’ thing is rather…complicated.

    In my ‘submissive’ marriage I would have been the one reading the manual and doing the mechanics. The hubs wasn’t mechanically inclined. But it was our belief that I was created to be his ‘helper’. So whatever he wanted to accomplish I was there to help him accomplish that. I didn’t dare to have my own hopes and dreams.

    Frankly, looking at my life now – the person I am now – I can scarce believe that I ever participated in and endorsed this nonsense.

    Like

    • Hi Ruth, thanks for the comment 🙂

      I do admire your honesty about your previous life, although I just don’t understand it all.

      This post came from a comment between violet and me about women as property and I think she said you and victoria had alerted her to that concept.

      What is interesting, despite my lack of religion, I’d always known about it from the historical perspective. And I thought it merited a post because people still contnue with the same old myths. I’m not going to ask if you have taken your husband’s name or whether you wear a ring. Yours to choose, but to think about also.

      I read the manuals because that is how my brain works. He does what I say (:D) because he trusts me and he can do the work under instruction 😉 I’m not the helper. I’m the boss. In that situation anyway. I think it’s called teamwork though.

      I think you have made such a huge leap I can’t even comprehend it.

      Like

      • Ruth says:

        I wouldn’t have minded if you did ask about that.

        Yes, I did take his last name. We discussed it and I did think about not doing so. He immigrated here to the US using a K1 Visa(fiancee visa). It seemed to significantly complicate things if I didn’t take his name. It was possible, but they do question the legitimacy of these types of marriages, so we decided not to further complicate our case and just do the easy thing.

        We both wear rings as a symbol of our love and devotion to one another – not as a symbol of any property exchange.

        Like

        • We both had rings too. For the same reason I guess. We just don’t wear them any more. He works in construction so it can be dangerous and I just have no interest. I will wear my grandmother’s engagement ring from time to time as I think that is very pretty. (Diamond set half-eternity ring)

          Oddly I was going for Australian residency based on his residency, but we chucked it in the end and went back to the UK. Parallel lives? Well not quite, as I didn’t have your dismal start with religion, phew!

          In terms of last names, Spain is totally different and so is Gib, because it is Spanish influenced. No one bats an eyelid if you have separate names and are married. For example, two of my neighbours here have been married a similar length of time as us, 30 years or so, she calls herself Hathaway and he is Gonzalez. She is hardly the world’s biggest feminist but she is proud of her British name and wants to retain it. Fascinating.

          Like

          • Ruth says:

            Ah, yes, well he lost his about a week ago doing yard work. We’ll get a metal detector out there and see if we can find it. I think it bothers him more than me. I’m actually wearing my mother’s vintage set. It’s not flashy or anything, but it’s very sentimental.

            Like

          • Mine is slightly sentimental, the grandma engagement ring one.

            I was staying with my mum when my dad was dying in hospital and she said, ‘I’d like you to have this, you always liked it.’

            It was true, I loved grandma’s ring. My mum said they could never have afforded the same sort of ring. I’ve written about it somewhere, I’ll try and find the link for the pix.

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            A lovely ring and an endearing story. Life is messy, is it not?

            Both of my parents died when I was fairly young. My dad when I was 12 and my mother(mama) when I was just two days shy of 19.

            Like

          • I love the ring.

            That is so young Ruth 😦

            When I was a kid, some of my parents’ friends died in their 40s.

            Here is a post:

            http://everypicturetellsone.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/baby-roughseas-in-the-north-sea/

            (saves me writing it out all again)

            Another friend of theirs died at a similar age, I spent a lot of my youth worrying my dad would die in his forties too,

            How very, very hard for you Ruth. It wasn’t easy for me at my age, but that must have been seriously traumatic. I can’t think of anything helpful to say.

            A bit like the submission, a world I know nothing about.

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            No, it wasn’t easy and even harder for my younger siblings. Losing my parents, especially my mother, is what sort of drove me into religion. Looking for a family, I guess.

            When I first started blogging I found it cathartic to write everything out. The whole story is here:

            http://gulliblestravelsdma.wordpress.com/the-hard-stuff/

            It is rather a lot so please don’t feel obligated to read.

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            Oh, it’s been many years ago now, and while I’m sometimes still melancholy about the loss I have really good memories. I’ve had quite a lot of help along the way. And really, there is nothing left to say.

            I read your post. Love the photo…and your Uncle Jack seems to be wearing a bit of a smile. Tarquin is a beautiful dog.

            Like

          • It’s a loss at any age, but so young, it must have been devastating for you all.

            I’ve looked up the book of Ruth 😀 so I’ll start reading through it chapter by chapter. I’ll try and leave comments over there on it, OK?

            I loved uncle Jack, and Tarquin was always my best friend ever.

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            Thanks, Roughseas.

            That is quite a lot of reading and after I left the linkI thought better of it. I’m in such a better place in my life now. I must do a post on that.

            Dogs – wo(man’s) best friend 😀

            Like

          • Well, if you don’t want me to read, I won’t. Makes no difference to me, Interesting yes, because I don’t understand it all, but I don’t want to browse around your underwear.

            I love my dogs. I’ve loved all my dogs. Unconditional love. If only people could manage a half of that.

            Like

          • Ruth says:

            You are certainly welcome to read it. Were it particularly private I’d take it down. I hesitate to promote my blog on another’s. And as it’s quite long didn’t want you to feel I’d be offended if you didn’t is all.

            Like

          • That’s absolutely no issue at all Ruth. I don’t see it as promoting, rather providing information without making a comment that is as long as 11 blog posts. I do it, if I have written something relevant why not add a link instead of gabbling on for too long?

            I’ll get around to it and will look forward to reading when I’m not looking at current blogs/comments. Thank you for the link, seriously.

            Like

  2. Hey!! Thanks a ton for linking me..I mean, it’s so sad when we see such sexist remarks on the part of responsible people..M speechless at such sick mindsets.

    Like

    • Hi Vishal, sorry I’ve not been around recently. You’re posting every day and I’n not posting at all or much!!

      But while I’m scanning posts, I did notice that one of yours and cringed. I thought it was well worth highlighting to people who maybe don’t read Indian blogs or know much about Indian politics (I don’t but courtesy of you, I know a little).

      Like

      • Take your time and understand you are busy. Just watch for news and ull find many such imbecile reasoning during elections. From time to time, I will keep posts till the end of the elections and hopefully, you’ll read them. Cheerz

        Like

  3. makagutu says:

    I think Diderot was right when he said

    Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest

    And I don’t know when men will no longer be superstitious or if they still are will rise above such primitive texts.

    Like

  4. davidprosser says:

    I see all over the world where men cling to these beliefs that women, even their own mothers, sisters, wives and daughters are property. I think to myself that surely it’s just a lack of education that keeps them following these outmoded beliefs. Then I see their Rulers, their Politicians and their Clergy and understand a lack of education isn’t the main problem, it’s a lack of humanity. How can people go on forcing female children into marriage and the chance of an early death, forcing then into arranged marriages with men they’ve never met living in cultures they don’t know. How can men who eschew marriage, and follow the rule of books centuries old, deny a woman the right to possess ownership of her own body, how can they suggest killing a woman forced into sex against her will or even one who has sex before marriage. Everytime I come back to the same answer, these people lack common humanity. They enjoy the power they have and that’s why they won’t change.
    It’s gong to take the rest of mankind who may have a spark of humanity to bring about the changes, and for that a lot of them are going to have to realise those centuries old books they read are the fairy tales that shouldn’t scare them any more and they can move into the light and see women as their opposites but equals in all things. They are balance.
    xxx Huge Hugs xxx

    Like

    • I don’t really have anything to say to your comment David, apart from Yes and Hugs!

      But actually, I think there are a number of factors.

      I do think lack of education, or certainly critical thinking, comes into it.

      Another factor, for both women and men, is that if it doesn’t affect me it doesn’t matter. A sort of reverse NIMBY syndrome, ie if it’s not in my back yard, who cares?

      And power and control are very motivating factors to continue with the status qyo.

      Plus, we continue to reinforce women as (sex) objects every single day of our lives.

      It’s something to be opposed on so many levels that it is impossible. Prejudice, discrimination and beliefs are too ingrained in our society 😦

      Gloomy reply of the day here from me.

      Like

  5. Yep. I thought we went were going to settle this all in the 60’s-70’s. But you can’t kill it. (My mother despaired of me and my views)
    It’s fairly common for couples here to have different names/hyphenated names…people are less awkward about it, although it’s not the majority….and there seems to be a swing back to storybook traditional. People looking for something.
    You try to go your own way. Tired of waiting for all to come around…tired of struggling. I’ve done what I could. Walked away. I exist in society as we do, but poke me at your own risk, though.
    (and my dad always said to never trust anyone who used scripture to prove a point. Pretty solid advice)

    Like

    • Yes, I think my parents wondered where they had gone wrong when I started to think for myself. My mother couldn’t bear to write our different surnames on envelopes. She must have thought the whole postal service in the world would consider that her daughter was living in sin because she didn’t have the same name as her husband. So strange. She would only ever write our first names.

      The hyphenated one is interesting. Not my choice, by it’s not a bad one. Do you have any hispanic influence with the names though? Although Spanish women are meant to tag on the husband’s surname, most of the ones in my village just continue to use their own and ignore the husband’s name 😀

      Yes, I think we need to live our own lives, but sometimes, I do feel the need to write about some of these issues. If I can ever change once person’s mind, or even make them rethink their views, I’m not wasting time. Even better if I get them to rescue an animal 🙂

      Someone stopped me as I was going in the block yesterday with snows and asked what he was, so he got the long story. ‘He’s very noble,’ he said. ‘I wish you many happy years with him.’ What a sweet thing to say 🙂

      Like

      • LAughed about your mom. Sounds familiar…know that pix of a cat staring at a corner to ignore everything going on around? that was my mom…except she hated cats.
        Writing is never a waste of time. Recently I’ve just had such whiplash thinking “what? This issue is all back again? All that time and effort and it’s like we never did anything. Why?” Sigh. Every feel that way?
        There’s a huge Spanish/Mexican/Indian influence with name sequence here – long long names – many of the men have their mom’s/maternal family names included.
        That was a very sweet comment. Got to run- Mollly slept through the rain and storms and it’s just unusually cold and clear for this time of year…and she doesn’t want to waste a minute…got her coat on and ready to go

        Like

        • My mum didn’t get my ideas. Couldn’t understand why I got married when I didn’t change my name ;D is that all marriage is about? Actually it works for tax breaks and health care for me, but ever the pragmatist.

          I write. I want people to know what is going on, as do you. We write differently but not in terms of messages.

          Hope Molly got out in time 🙂 Need to take out Little Rat before I turn in.

          Like

          • It’s odd, but you might be better off filing as a single for Federal taxes and healthcare here rather than as a couple in some places here. (Schools in this state are funded by property tax (and state funding) – so if you rent, you pay nothing although the rent is supposed to pay your share as the property owner pays tax.) Some states do not have a state income tax – some do.
            The US federal tax code is a total mess. Would be better if it was either a flat tax or sales tax so those who spend more money, pay more in taxes.

            Like

          • Tells ya, I know nothing about america, its elections, its taxes or anything. totally confuses me. sometimes, giving states autonomy (or here in Spain communidads) isn’t such a good idea.

            Like

          • Sometimes good – sometimes difficult. A collection of individuals can protect against overreach of power and abuse – that’s basically the struggle right now….will the country become under total control by one or remain united for much but able to be responsive to local needs and ideas. The country is so diverse in geography, ideology, economy, and histories, being totally under one rule will not work well. What is appropriate for the small densely populated East coast states is not appropriate for vast states West. The East cost concerns, differ from the great lakes areas, the gulf coast, the florida/SE coast and the Calif coasts ( even northern CA is very different from Southern CA). The agricultural and mid west/central states have little in common with the East coast. We may all be united, but are all very different. It would be like telling everyone they have to wear the same coat from Sept to April. Restrictive and foolish. One great thing, though is all the fabulous stories in history of each place…..of course people have to be able to read and see sense in reading those.
            We all work with what we got. (But it was a lot easier to pick up and move when we were younger.)

            Like

          • I think it must be difficult to govern large countries, as you say so very diverse. But the UK, for example has always had a larger population than Spain, so it’s not just about geography. And if we can manage a national system for education and health, I don’t see why a country that claims to be the world leader, to reflect that in health care provision. I really find insurance-based health care barbaric but that is a British perspective where we have been used to the NHS. That is probably my biggest lack of understanding. The different taxes are strange. I understand America to be a cheap way of life, but some of the taxes sound horrific. None of it cabe en mi cabeza.

            Like

  6. Kev says:

    You’re very lucky not to have been brainwashed, Kate. I’m truly happy for you…I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy…well, maybe, just a little… Anyway, in all seriousness. I wouldn’t.

    What I really don’t like is how religious groups prey upon those that are emotionally distressed/vulnerable, teenagers, children and the like. I was one of those and had it not been for my own questioning of things later in life I would still probably be enslaved to their ideals and guilt trips.

    Once they have you, they feed you with fear…fear of god, fear of burning in hell, fear of doing the slightest thing wrong. fear of even thinking the wrong thing…like ‘fornication of the mind’ if you have sexual thoughts about another person. (It’s natural for crying out loud!) And in all this is included the submissive wife bullshit…Quoting Paul and all that crap from the bible to back it up.

    I’m lucky in the sense that even though I was emotionally unstable at the time, I was endowed with a brain and the desire to use it. The problem with brainwashing…and it won’t cross the damn word out either, because that truly is what it is, is that you always have niggling doubts about things and fret about being wrong.

    You’re absolutely right…as long as we have religious circles promoting all this shit, there will never be equality. Women don’t stand a chance and it’s just f*****g wrong. Religion is the world’s worst enemy; The Brewery of war and the stagnation of progress.

    Like

    • Well said, Kev. And you were spot on when you wrote:

      “Religious groups prey upon those that are emotionally distressed/vulnerable, teenagers, children and the like.”

      They’re like vultures. I am reminded of a well-known picture of a child from Africa on the brink of death from starvation, and a vulture is standing next to her.

      Like

      • Kev says:

        That’s exactly how it is except they make it look sweet and nice and loving…take away all the niceties by unveiling the truth and this picture is the epithet we are left with.

        Like

      • It’s just out of my mindset, but I can vaguely understand what you are talking about. Ruth’s story is a good example I suspect.

        The reason I have problems with it all is that is just illogical and unbelievable. People do not rise from the dead. Virgins don’t get pregnant. The world doesn’t suddenly get created in six days. You can’t feed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread. Ergo, it is all rubbish. It’s a bit like the Hitchins interview you linked to where he said that most religions have a virgin birth of some type. It just doesn’t hang together.

        I think some people do get something out of it. So long as it doesn’t impact on the rest of us, that’s fine by me. But don’t interfere with my life, that’s all I ask. And your links to the onslaught in Europe were scary 😦

        Like

  7. Thank you for the linking me, and for an excellent, yet sobering post. In his Psychology Today article “The Psychology of Male Domination: Why Men Oppress Women”, Steve Taylor, PhD wrote:

    “What sane species would treat half of its members — and the very half which gives birth to the whole species — with such contempt and injustice?”

    I think he nailed it. When men oppress and repress women, they are insane. But because we live in a male dominated world, this behavior is not recognized for what it really is. Insanity.

    William Brennan PhD wrote an eye-open, heart-wrenching paper title “Female Objects of Semantic Dehumanization and Violence”. It has a very busy background making it very difficult to read, so I posted a good portion of the article on my first blog Neuro Research Project, under the title “Semantic Dehumanization and Violence. The blog can be reached from my other blog you linked if the original article gets too hard on the eyes.

    Abstract:
    “Now and throughout history, pejorative language has played a major role in the longstanding victimization of women. This study employs a comprehensive classification of degrading categories — deficient human, subhuman, animal, parasite, disease, inanimate object, and waste product — as a framework for analyzing the demeaning words invoked to justify man’s inhumanity to women. It concludes with observations about how this pernicious anti-female lexicon of derogation is part and parcel of a pervasive seamless shroud of anti-life rhetoric called upon to rationalize violence against other victims in contemporary society and in times past.”
    —————————
    You see this same behavior today. Not much has changed. When I hear people going on and on about philosophers like Aristotle, I cringe. I get s sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. He had a huge influence on the way woman have been treated throughout recorded history, and religious church fathers adopted the opinions of him and others like him.

    It is my belief that we would have been so much more advanced as a civilization, and more humane had such men had not been so revered.
    —————————
    “Also, as regards male and female, the former is superior, the latter is inferior, the male is ruler, the female is subject” Aristotle (Politics Bk. 1, Ch. 4)”

    “The female is a female by virtue of a certain lack of qualities. We should regard female nature as afflicted with a natural defectiveness.” ~Aristotle

    Like

    • Your links that you left on comments were very interesting. Most people don’t always click on links, so I just used the one example.

      Thanks, I wouldn’t say it was excellent, just what fell out of the fingertips to try and illustrate a very simple point.

      When I was first writing to Violet, I had a different post in mind, but reading some of the atheist blogs I had to say something about people who have been strong enough to throw their religion in which they had been deeply indoctrinated.

      There is a big difference between my point of view, and a former Christian point of view. Religion has not affected my life. I have no interest in it. I wondered why people set up atheist blogs. A bit like I wondered why the bigot set up an anti-gay marriage blog, I suppose.

      However, when you left me those links, I can see why you all do write about it. Ignoring it won’t make it go away, and me thinking it doesn’t affect me is being irresponsible when it does affect others, whether women or gays or children, for example. But I’ll go back to my usual topics soon and maybe add an anti-religion post from time to time.

      I think I have a copy of Aristotle’s Politics back in Spain, I’m sure I answered a question on him in my finals at university. Must look it up.

      Oh and pejorative language is a big one with me. I DO write about that. A lot.

      Like

  8. @Ruth — I’m so sorry to read that you lost your parents when you were young. I agree that it was probably those tragedies that played a role in you getting in deep with religion. I can say the same for myself after the suicide of my husband. We were misled by what appeared to be beauty.

    Like

    • @ both you and Ruth. I think you two have suffered far more than most of us with those deaths. No one could ever criticise you for becoming sucked in by beauty when you must have been at such a low ebb. That’s why I think you are both two very strong women to have gone through that, ditch religion, and come out on the other side. Aristotle would no doubt disagree.

      Like

      • Your comment moved me deeply. Thank you! I risk sharing so vulnerably (and I think I can probably speak for Ruth as well), not to draw sympathy but to bring awareness. People do tend to live in their own bubble and don’t realize there is real suffering happening on a global scale, and it’s primarily caused by religion, an addiction to power, and inequality. If we just present the stats without showing the personal experiences — people tend to not see the real human suffering behind those stats. Empathy tends to be disengaged when there are just stats presented. Ruth and I are at risk for being called whiners, being too naive, uneducated, weak, what ever — but the long and short of it is that we probably have more courage than most, and are not afraid to show what’s behind the social mask that many if not most of us wear.

        Like

        • Thanks Victoria. You both deserve so much respect. You are in a league about which I know nothing. I have read the book of Ruth today which was very sobering.

          I think we need both, stats and personal. Sometimes it takes someone else to do it. That’s often my job, so I’ll bear it in mind if that’s ok.

          Like

          • And thank you. I also appreciate that you took the time to read those links I provided in your other post. While my opinion is based on countless hours and many years of research, it is important to provide sources to back my opinion, otherwise I am not much different than the religious people who claim there is a god based on what someone else told them, or what they ‘feel’, rather than evidence. So while I may often provide sources when I have discourse here it doesn’t mean I expect you to read them, unless you have reason to doubt what I’ve said/wrote, or are simply interested in gaining a bigger picture of said subject/topic.

            Like

          • I always read links. On blogs or on comments. If people take the time to do so, then I will take the time to read them. Again, it’s about respecting people and their opinion.
            While I am very opinionated, I don’t lack respect (OK a few people come to mind :D)
            You cite something here or on your blog, I will try and find the time to read it, same with everyone else.

            Like

          • And as a common practice, I do the same, even when I may disagree with the person I’m having discourse with. I do value people’s opinions, except when they’re riddled with error and contribute to the harm of our species, other species, and planet Earth. Then they are fair game. 😉

            Like

          • Actually I usually piss off in that case. You didn’t get involved in the askthebigot fandango did you? Wise.

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          • No, I’ve never been on her blog. Seems like there are several already holding down the fort. I am an advocate for human rights — and I try to put my two cents in where I deem is most valuable. Actually, I prefer to spend my free time doing what I like rather than having to spread awareness and find solutions to preventing more fucked up people who are addicted to power and religion. But becoming apathetic only fuels the already blazing fires, and so many simply don’t bother. We are all in this together and should equally share in the responsibility of making this world a better place for future generations.

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          • John Z has more stamina than you can poke a stick at. She was rude to me, so that was the end of it for me. Typical, archetypical, patriarchal woman (great alliteration?).

            Me too. In all respects. Use our time as best we can, to improve things for whoever or whatever. Apathy is dangerous which is why I valued your posts re the march into Europe 😦

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          • Yeah, John is pretty amazing both in knowledge about the OT and stamina. I appreciate your comment. Wished I had better news to share. If you knew what was going down in the U.S. (especially where women are concerned) you’d be stunned. All highly stratified, authoritarian religions should be illegal.

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          • I like John. He makes me laugh and he is clever. He is probably totally sexist but if men are funny clever and sexist I have to say, even i get sucked in.

            I have zilch interest in the OT! or the NT. Or the Gita. Or the Koran. I don’t like going to the supermarket but the one is essential the others are not.

            I have to say I know (via the internet) some fine Americans (mostly women). I don’t want to visit there and haven’t for a long time. I was only ever interested in a few places: Boston, Washington (DC), the Everglades and New Orleans.

            I read an interesting reversal of your take today about how America is going downhill. It’s no longer respected worldwide and the health care programme is terrible.

            I think the issue is that America is incapable of viewing itself from the outside. I hope you don’t find that offensive. Sometimes we all need to stand back and look at ourselves.

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          • I’m not offended at all. I am very concerned about the state of my country. I recently read an article from The Nation that stated that America will be a 3rd World country by 2023. I personally believe we are there now. Nearly half of the American population is in poverty. Today, I read this:

            “A study, to appear in the Fall 2014 issue of the academic journal Perspectives on Politics, finds that the US is no democracy, but instead an oligarchy.”

            http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/14/358580/us-is-an-oligarchy-not-a-democracy/

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          • I think my country is crap too. A beautiful place but full of I’m not sure what sort of people. I can play ostrich here.

            I have a low level of tolerance for thoughtlessness. My partner works with someone who doesn’t vote. This guy is nearly 40. OK the options are crap, but please vote for the least worst.

            People (well women in the UK) died for the right to vote. Don’t abuse that, even if the choices are poor. Aaaaagh!!!!

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          • “People (well women in the UK) died for the right to vote.”

            Same here, and I think people forget that, especially the young women. They forget that very, very few men took part during the Suffrage movement. They were cowards.

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          • They had nothing to gain.

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          • Or so they thought. Didn’t want to let go of their slaves or power overness. Heil dopamine.

            I put this video together just before the 2012 presidential election.

            http://youtu.be/PFnAN0Tb-Nc

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          • slow down, you’ve woken up and I’m falling asleep!

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          • LOL — so take a nap — it’s what 5PM there? 😉

            I was only replying out of courtesy to your continued dialog.

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          • Just about.

            I like to try and reply to all comments (I miss a few).

            The nap was scheduled for a few hours ago. No idea what happened!!

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          • 🙂 I do appreciate your replies.

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          • Apart from the fact that I think it courteous and polite to respond to people, I think if someone has taken the time to write – often a long and detailed – comment, they merit a reply. Like you, others may add links. Someone has taken time out of their day to read my blog, maybe the comments, and add something. so why would I ignore their contribution. Because when I visit a blog and leave a comment and there is no reply, it feels like I am being ignored.

            So therefore, I stop commenting/visiting. I think it is different when other people pile in and comment on different replies. For example, talking with John or Ark on Violets, or talking with Arch on Ark’s. The blog owner doesn’t need to respond there to two people who have gone totally off topic. Most of my blogs tend to be comments between me and the reader, although a lot of people read all the (long!) comments and occasionally comment on another’s. The atheist network is an odd one. Sometimes there are long thoughtful posts, at others, there are loads of one liners – friendly, however.

            I don’t mind off topic, I don’t mind swearing. I do mind people talking about something when they know stuff all about the subject eg feminism or vegetarianism. That’s why I don’t get involved with religious topics from a biblical point of view, I’m coming from the human/civil rights perspective and to me, that is more valid. But we all have different opinions, those of you who can argue from the scriptural perspective may carry more weight. Or maybe not, to a closed mind.

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          • “That’s why I don’t get involved with religious topics from a biblical point of view, I’m coming from the human/civil rights perspective and to me, that is more valid.”

            Yep — and that’s what most of us unbelievers, who discuss religion, are coming from, too. We don’t give a damn if someone wants to believe in god so long as they don’t harm others, believe women are inferior and should submit, teach children about hell and devils, go to war because god told them to, i.e., GW Bush, etc. I have better things to do with my time, so it’s not about whether god exists or not. It’s the toxic fallout of belief.

            However, one must know the language of these believers, i.e., the bible, otherwise you’re not going to really be effective.

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          • I know, and I totally understand that which is why I admire those of you who take the time to engage. It is not a good use of my time. I do not wish to read the bible from start to finish to argue with idiots. Plus as I haven’t experienced the brainwashing, you have another start on me 😀

            That’s why I stick to topics about which I know. Where did I read that atheists never change a Christian’s mind? It happens because it does, when someone starts to question their thoughts/beliefs. So, there is no value in discourse.

            My point in writing about religion was more to alert people like me, who have little ie no interest in it, that it is insidiious and evil, wrecks peoples’ lives, and wants to control the world.

            They (religious bloggers) annoy me anyway. They insult my intelligence. There is a reason I have letters after my name and it isn’t because they were dropped down to me from some gracious being in the sky. They insult other people. They want to take away people’s rights. The argument about gay marriage is silly. They argue that traditional marriage is being attacked. Very nice skewed argument. It isn’t being attacked at all. Is anyone trying to abolish hetero marriages? No. Just extending the same rights to all citizens. They argue about a gay agenda. I am not gay. Does that stop me from wanting other people to have equal rights? You can tell I don’t have the patience to speak to these righteous fascists.

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          • “Apart from the fact that I think it courteous and polite to respond to people, I think if someone has taken the time to write – often a long and detailed – comment, they merit a reply.”

            Same here. I was following your lead. My point was that you seemed to be wanting to engage in dialog, or at least I thought you did — that it wasn’t just about being courteous or polite. Then as soon as I post a link/video, you write “slow down”. So I stepped back to assess — I saw a pattern.

            I enjoy getting to know people — and their perspective. And when I leave links it’s to compliment what they said. But when they tell me to slow down — then I will put on the breaks. Some people have certain speed limits. I’m learning what you speed limit is.

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          • I’m sorry if I’ve given you the wrong impression. The British little girl in me was brought up to write thank you letters to all my great aunts who sent boxes of handkerchiefs at christmas. So therefore, I will thank people for a comment, even a meaningless ‘great post’ comment. Just as I try to remember to visit, and if the blog is interesting, reciprocate a follow. Having a conversation is a different issue, and I didn’t mean to suggest that I was merely responding for the sake of it.

            Don’t forget the time difference. Plus on top of that I am a morning person and fade rapidly in the afternoon. For example I’ve been up for nearly nine hours now. So that’s partly about the slow down aspect. I work and blog in mornings.

            My speed limit is within the law 😉 Up to but not over. But we won’t talk about that now. I think I’ve caught up with all your links now, so you can feel free to post other relevant ones. Preferably not depressing!

            Your video was good. Hard as nails and spot-on. But it’s not my opinion you need to change.

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          • No problem on my end. Thanks for the clarification. I put in a 16 hour day at least, usually up by 6AM. Most of my friends are European, we talk on Skype everyday, or on blogs, so I’m always aware of the time difference. Most don’t get tired by 5PM or take naps — so I was caught off guard when you said “slow down, I’m falling asleep.” Wasn’t sure if you were actually tired or just bored. Thanks for taking the time to read/watch the links. 🙂

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          • I suspect you are younger than me 😀

            I’m up on time difference too, I’ve got a range of clocks set across my blog so I know what it is from Sydney to Vancouver, by way of Riyadh, San Jose and a load of others.

            Spain is famous for the siesta. But even if it wasn’t, 2pm is my critical cut of point. Even when I was at work.

            I don’t get bored, just tired. Seriously.

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          • I suspect I’m older than you. Middle **cough** aged. 😀

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          • Older than 54? (in June anyway)

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          • LMAO — 55 (in June anyway)

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          • Damn!! Just damn. I can usually pull the older than people think I am card, especially when people see the pic. Long brown wavy hair at 53/4 for British women is not the norm. I don’t look young close-up, but I have been taken for younger/Spanish/Gibbo a few times. (Thanks mum for the lack of grey hairs 🙂 )

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          • Hehe — I have long hair, too. It is naturally wavy, too. I was also fortunate to get good genes from both sides of the family, therefore I look or I’m told I look younger for my age. (Thanks mom for the lack of wrinkles.)

            I also listen to contemporary music (most all music), and I enjoy house music, too. How many middle-aged people do you know who dance around the house with ipod in tow. I’m not trying to be young. I am young. 😉

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          • Despite living in the sun, I don’t do the sun either, so hopefully I’m not too wrinkly. My Span neighbour referred to a British woman who sunbathed all the time as having piel de un elefante. Even if I had sunbathed that would have put me off!

            I have music phases (qv my desert island discs post on roughseass). Mostly I prefer quiet. But when I do music it is LOUD. I don’t do contemporary though. I have quite enough nice records 🙂

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          • Well, when I say contemporary, I’m not talking about Justin Bieber, Miley Cyrus, or Britney Spears. *barf*

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          • I can smugly say I have never head any of those. I have heard of KT Tunstall however and black horse and a cherry tree. Recommended.

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          • Oh, I love recommendations. TY

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          • Don’t you know it? A Scottish blogger sent me the link, YT it, I love it.

            Like

          • Small world. My father is from just outside of Boston. Been there several times. For several years, I lived 45 minutes from New Orleans, and worked there for a while. I don’t like N.O. While there food is incredible and there’s a lot of hospitable people, It’s oppressive and dangerous. The main tourist attraction is surrounded by the Projects, which is crime ridden and extremely violent. One wrong turn in the French Quarter and you’re toast. You need to be drunk to appreciate it. 😉

            I moved to Washington, DC after school and worked as a clerk for a main branch of government (the FBI) for several years. It’s a cool place, or at least it was when I lived there. It was very exciting venture for a very young women just getting out on her own. I loved the Smithsonian museums, especially Natural History, and National Air and Space.

            I’ve been to the Everglades. It’s massive. Been on an airboat. Loud as hell.

            Like

          • Amazing you have been to all the places (well the only few) that I am interested in.

            Interesting perspective on NO. (Nola?) A blogger who has disappeared was moving there last year ? Hmm, hope she didn’t disappear in NO. Food prob wouldn’t interest me, isn’t it hugely fishy? Creole?

            I thought DC was meant to be a huge crime spot, so interesting that you did enjoy that as a young woman. I’ve also read about people going to NY and being told they must NOT walk at night, they have to take a taxi. I would hate that. I like to be independent. I can walk out at any time of night in either Gib, or my Spanish pueblo, without fear. I value that very much.

            I think the Everglades attraction came from a book I read. Something about a mortuary attendant there. In a few years I may remember the author’s name.

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  9. EllaDee says:

    The [excellent] posts from you, those linked and the Diderot & Rousseau quotes in the comments remind me that Narcotics Anonymous’ basic text states “We have a disease; progressive, incurable and fatal” and quotes “Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results” as apparently does Alcoholics Anonymous.
    We exist in a world where it is constantly so, broadened to consideration of religion, politics, power, social/cultural norms, gambling, sex, alcohol, drugs… where reality is undesirable for those pursuing their particular brand of high, who will use whatever means fair or foul to maintain a supply of their vice of choice. While others welcoming of reality guard against incursions heedless or deliberate, some are sucked into the abyss.

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    • There are some very thoughtful people out there, which is heartening. However, I am saddened reading around that the Christian right is deliberately going all out for more power and control everywhere. I find it spooky. Victoria (neuronotes) put links on the previous post in her comments that were very distressing (to me) about how American evangelicals are trying to gain a foothold in Europe and within the UN. Not good at all.

      I don’t push my beliefs onto other people. Sure I state what they are, and any reader of my blogs knows this, but I don’t tell you to be vegetarian, adopt a rescue dog, scavenge out of rubbish bins (OK I don’t need to tell you that one!), vote the same way as me etc etc. Each to their own. Why is there such a lack of respect? It defeats me, it really does.

      Like

  10. violetwisp says:

    It’s easy to live in an equality bubble and forget that other women even in our culture are indoctrinated into being the weak partner in their relationship. It’s easy to feel disheartened but then I remember it’s only been 100 years since we got the vote. Bigger cultural shifts happen over such long periods time. I got married to my partner for easy papers in Argentina – no name change, no rings, just jeans in a registry office and his disappointed mother shedding confused tears in the corner … we’d been together for almost 10 years but she couldn’t reconcile sham marriage with real relationship. 😀

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    • Oddly I don’t forget. Every time I see women dressing up to look sexy and want to be desirable, I just think – women want to be owned.

      Oh, you dressed down more than me. I did get a frock made in red silk for my wedding in Sydney register office. No parents. Although they were all invited. It was nice though. It was what I wanted. What I didn’t want was my dad’s idea of a marquee on the front lawn or my MIL’s church blessing when we returned to the UK. Neither of which happened.

      Your point about the vote is interesting and sad. How long did it take women to get there? I guess there will be no more major changes before I die.

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      • “Your point about the vote is interesting and sad. How long did it take women to get there? I guess there will be no more major changes before I die.”

        I’m just catching up on your replies, but I want to address this one you made to Violet first because I think it’s a vital point. I hear/read from guys why say all the time on other forums, etc., regarding the oppression of women that WE (women) need to get off our asses and do something about this — and that THEY (men) lose respect when they ‘see’ that it looks like we’re not doing much and that it’s taken this long to gain what freedoms we have.

        My comeback is why are THEY (men) not getting off their asses and helping women. When you go to protests that are related to ‘women’s’ issues there are usually a handful of guys. They talk the talk, but…since they hold most of the cards, we need their voice, their vote. We need to see them become equally proactive. Christopher Hitchens once said that men are apathetic about women’s issues because they believe they have nothing to gain from this.

        They have everything to gain from this. Guys like this (and there are many), who boast that men use reason, are more analytical, use more critical thinking than women, are only kidding themselves. We have a saying here in the South USA — “When Ma’ma ain’t happy, ain’t no body happy.” Translation — equality is good for men, women, and children. It’s necessary for our species to survive and thrive. There are abundant studies that demonstrate this as fact.

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        • This is a short answer, but they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain with retaining the status quo. You know that as well as I do. I could give you the long answer but this will do for now.

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          • ” but they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain with retaining the status quo”

            When looking at the bigger picture — no they don’t. Unless of course they get off on going to war and being maimed, sustain brain injuries that can lead to other disabilities as well as behavioral problems that not only affect the family but all of society. And there are so many disadvantages I could write a book here. Devaluing women affects how our children are raised. Adverse childhood experiences lead to a slew of social, cognitive, and behavioral problems. Male are just as affected as females. http://www.cdc.gov/ace/index.htm Click on ‘Major Findings”.

            What they are getting, however, when they have power over others are huge hits of dopamine, short term pleasure with long term consequences, which gives them the illusion of well being — of self-gain.

            From Ian Robertson, PhD in his book “The Winner Effect: How Power Changes Your Brain”
            ” Power changes the brain triggering increased testosterone in both men and women. Testosterone and one of its by-products called 3-androstanediol, are addictive, largely because they increase dopamine in a part of the brain’s reward system called the nucleus accumbens.
            But too much power – and hence too much dopamine – can disrupt normal cognition and emotion, leading to gross errors of judgment and imperviousness to risk, not to mention huge egocentricity and lack of empathy for others.”.

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          • But the point is, they do not look at the bigger picture. So there we have it. Always short term gain. OK, replied before looking at your linky but I guess my reply will still stand 😀

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          • And that’s my point — they need to see the bigger picture because they’ve been condition — brainwashed into believing that they are at an advantage. It’s an illusion. We are all at a disadvantage and our children pay the price dearly. Children become adults. So I’m not going to throw in the towel just because they don’t see the bigger picture —> now. Humans pride themselves on being the most advanced species. That’s where they’ve gone wrong. We place more value on war and profit than feeding the starving and providing safe environments for our children’s brain to develop properly. That has to change or we are doomed as a species.

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          • To be honest I don’t care if we are doomed. I don’t think we are very nice. I have more interest in the Gibraltar monkeys and my dogs than I do most people. I’ll be writing a monkey post this week hopefully.

            Humanity is deteriorating.

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          • Oh, you would enjoy Robert Sapolsky’s “Peace Among Primates” article. It’s posted on the Greater Good Science Center website. Also, I grew up with a Capuchin monkey. Buttons. Got him when he was a baby. We lived in a small beach town on the Gulf Coast. If anyone asked where I lived, I told them “the monkey house”. That’s what everyone called it. They always knew where that was. 😀

            Looking forward to reading your monkey post.

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          • I’ll try and get around to having a looky.

            I have written more than enough monkey posts, here is the last one from one of my other blogs:

            http://everypicturetellsone.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/three-wise-yorkshire-monkeys/

            (other posts on there are probably searchable for macaques)

            The next post will be about them getting into people’s flats and behaving themselves 😀

            Like

          • Read your post and enjoyed it. I laughed out loud at your comment here regarding your next post. We we got Buttons, as I mentioned, he was a baby. Whoa, he was clever, and could pick a lock on his cage. We’d get home from school and he had all but destroyed the house. Would get into the garbage and we’d find chicken bones and coffee grounds on the beds, etc.

            It took about two years to tame him. Talk about wild. But he became a wonderful companion and addition to our family. He did like to masturbate a lot, and wasn’t shy about doing it in front of us. 😀

            Like

          • I am fond of the Gib monkeys. I think we could learn a lot from them instead of being frightened of them and harassing them. Or treating them as toys. Or as photo opportunities. They are a damn site more civilised than people.

            I walked my Little Dog up to see Partner yesterday lunchtime (no idea why, for a chat I think :D) and there was a monkey on the wall. Saw the dog and jumped into the tree. No problem for anyone.

            The monkey post will be on roughseas, I’ll try and get around to it today, I need to mix it with a self-publishing post, but as they are all tales, I should be able to do that. Or in the case of macaques, tailless.

            Like

  11. cobbies69 says:

    I must have a lucky person because I had a forward thinking mother and gave me lots of good advice, hopefully it made me a decent person. And being at an age of the hippy era with all the new changes of the world going on. So many fabulous ideas etc but nowadays we realise how much of it did not come to fruition, [Sadly] The usual stuff is that there are countries today that treat woman badly, mostly in the name of religion, some not treated much better than dogs etc. [Expression I guess you know what I mean] These countries and their rich rulers should be brought to justice for this and much more. This country can also be guilty, maybe not quite so deeply. However Kj, I am not that good at writing comments but do enjoy getting enlightened. Well done…

    Like

    • I think you were. My parents were pretty traditional/strcit/conventional/PITA.

      But they did push my education, not sure whether or me or for their glory as I was the first one in the family to go to university. I learned to think for myself and they decided they didn’t like that.

      I think part of the problem is, qv some of the discussion above, we don’t all appreciate what is going on around us, so we don’t take an interest. Whether it is about women, or religion or gays or whatever. I appreciated the links from neuronotes (Victoria) about American evangelicals trying to get a foothold in Europe to change our laws. I didn’t know that. I think it’s important to be aware of these issues and inform other people.

      Society is sexist to a greater or lesser degree, just depends where you live. Sometimes it is more blatant, but it is always still there.

      I love your comments Gerry, they are always so genuine 🙂

      Like

  12. WordPress said this post had 109 replies. Great Caesar’s Ghost!
    It seems you struck a few nerves.
    My usual comments about religion have already been made on other posts and I won’t bore you by repeating them, even though they still apply. Perhaps, instead, I can just carve out a small niche. I recently had reason to read up a bit on the late Hannah Arendt. She’s written quite a lot but is mostly known for her book on Eichmann’s role in WW2. While she found his actions abhorrent, in the end she was mostly struck by the way that he was able to see it all as so routine, so (and I am stretching it here) “necessary.”
    One of the many things that others found controversial about her writings was the assertion that we need to set as an ideal that we are able to live what she termed “lives without banisters;” that is, people should be able to set their own moral paths and not have to reply on rules of thumb either set or imposed by others.
    I say this because I believe it to be at the heart of what you find so distasteful about organized religion–specifically how so-called religious leaders are so apt to turn scripture and other ancient artifacts to their own selfish ends.

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    • It’s these formerly religious people. I’m out of my depth! But I do find their perspective interesting.

      I don’t see why it is so hard to set a reasonable code by which to live. Do no harm to others, try and help, don’t break the law. Why is that so difficult? Oh and don’t stick your nose in other peoples’ business even if you do disagree with what they do.

      Like

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